Some things I think need to be brought to attention

[Sotek]

Every FF game: Walk around, find stuff, see what's inside.

FF14: Walk around, be directed to stuff by quest guy, get pointed into the direction of a menu that takes you out of the game world and into an instance with other players like a typical hub game.

I think you mean;

Every Final Fantasy game: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever.

Final Fantasy XIV: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever, queue up for that dungeon/boss/whatever (which takes no time at all if you already have a party assembled, you know, like the old games already did for you).

Seriously. Go play Final Fantasy again, or any of the other games. Then make a new character on XIV. Other than the side quests there is really very little difference.
Final Fantasy I, you're stuck wandering around outside the first town until you "decide" to enter it and continue the game.
Final Fantasy VI, sets you on the story right from the start with very little wandering around.
Final Fantasy IX, stuck in Alexandria until you progress the story, with a few side quests.
Final Fantasy XIV, stuck in your starter city, with a few NPCs to talk to, until you progress the story and unlock a bunch of side quest.

Final Fantasy IX, you're then thrown into a series of cutscenes until you end up in a linear forest. Then you get to the overworld and you can "wander" until you get to the only possible destination; the Ice Cavern. Again, pretty Linear, no less so than Sastasha. After I've played Final Fantasy IX a bit and gone through all the dungeons, gotten an airship and (for some bizarre reason) go back to the Ice Cavern, I'm no longer exploring it because I already have. The exact same is true for Final Fantasy XIV. First run of Sastasha is exploring it, after that I'm not. Complaining that "there is no exploration like the old games" is complete and utter bullshit. They are exactly the same, except for that fact that you don't ever finish a MMO.

Yes, I know exactly what I said. Guess what? Final Fantasy <whatever> had "you go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again" because you very rarely ever needed to go back there ever again once you've cleared it. My issue with the Duty Finder is in relation to other (older) MMOs, not single player RPGs which are a completely different entity and really shouldn't be compared to MMOs in the way most people are here.

The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV?

[Susanoh]

I think you mean;

Every Final Fantasy game: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever.

Final Fantasy XIV: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever, queue up for that dungeon/boss/whatever (which takes no time at all if you already have a party assembled, you know, like the old games already did for you).

Seriously. Go play Final Fantasy again, or any of the other games. Then make a new character on XIV. Other than the side quests there is really very little difference.
Final Fantasy I, you're stuck wandering around outside the first town until you "decide" to enter it and continue the game.
Final Fantasy VI, sets you on the story right from the start with very little wandering around.
Final Fantasy IX, stuck in Alexandria until you progress the story, with a few side quests.
Final Fantasy XIV, stuck in your starter city, with a few NPCs to talk to, until you progress the story and unlock a bunch of side quest.

Final Fantasy IX, you're then thrown into a series of cutscenes until you end up in a linear forest. Then you get to the overworld and you can "wander" until you get to the only possible destination; the Ice Cavern. Again, pretty Linear, no less so than Sastasha. After I've played Final Fantasy IX a bit and gone through all the dungeons, gotten an airship and (for some bizarre reason) go back to the Ice Cavern, I'm no longer exploring it because I already have. The exact same is true for Final Fantasy XIV. First run of Sastasha is exploring it, after that I'm not. Complaining that "there is no exploration like the old games" is complete and utter bullshit. They are exactly the same, except for that fact that you don't ever finish a MMO.

Yes, I know exactly what I said. Guess what? Final Fantasy <whatever> had "you go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again" because you very rarely ever needed to go back there ever again once you've cleared it. My issue with the Duty Finder is in relation to other (older) MMOs, not single player RPGs which are a completely different entity and really shouldn't be compared to MMOs in the way most people are here.

The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV?

All this text and you still refuse to acknowledge the biggest point that separates the world of FF14 ARR from every Final Fantasy game (online or offline, including the original FF14) before it. That being that all the areas in all of those older FF games were a part of the world, and most of the areas in FF14 ARR are outside of the world in a location that you get to by queueing up as if you were playing a hub game like Phantasy Star Online. I have nothing against hub games, by the way. They're fine games in their own right. But they come with their own set of advantages and disadvantages, and having a large seamless world is not one of those advantages. I'm not quite sure why you continue babbling on about all of this other nonsense rather than the one point that was in the comment you actually responded to. That being that FF14 feels like a hub game where most interesting zones are outside of the world, other FF games do not. Not everyone is going to prefer the same types of games, and even if you're now suddenly big on the whole "queue up for everything and leave the world to go to isolated instances" for everything now, it doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

[Kiayin]

The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV?

You *can* take level 1 characters anywhere but through some of the strongholds. Even the Sylphlands, as long as you're careful. Why don't you make a new character and get it to Ishgard? You probably won't even need to use Sprint. o.o;

[Sotek]

All this text and you still refuse to acknowledge the biggest point that separates the world of FF14 ARR from every Final Fantasy game (online or offline, including the original FF14) before it.

I'm not acknowledging that because that wasn't what I was arguing against... In fact, I've already stated that there is a problem there and given input on possible improvements. If this is your point, I don't know why you're arguing against me.

At the end of the day, Final Fantasy XIV is no different to the older games, other than the fact that you need a group of other, real, people. In fact, in every way that matters, it is superior. People (yourself included) are pretending that the older games were somehow better in this regard, which is completely false.

I said as much in my original posts, how where the old games better when it comes to exploration or danger? They weren't. XIV clearly wins on exploration (compare Alexandria up to Dali, to the start of XIV to Sastasha. Alexandria to Dali is pretty much linear, XIV the moment you're out of the starting city you could technically travel to Mor Dhona). Danger? All random encounters became a drag, very quickly. They were not dangerous. They added no tension to the games. Just like getting hit by gravity in XIV.

You *can* take level 1 characters anywhere but through some of the strongholds. Even the Sylphlands, as long as you're careful. Why don't you make a new character and get it to Ishgard? You probably won't even need to use Sprint. o.o;

Well, as long as you don't start in Limsa Lominsa. Anyway, my point was it wouldn't be instant, and you would have to avoid monsters which can one shot you at that level (*cough*danger*cough*). People only think the world is small because once you've gotten to the end, you can travel everywhere easily with teleports. The exact same holds true in the old games, traveling Gaia in IX isn't hard once you have an airship, just like traveling Eorzea isn't hard once you can teleport. People complaining that XIV is some how less in this regard are bordering on delusional...

[Susanoh]

I'm not acknowledging that because that wasn't what I was arguing against... In fact, I've already stated that there is a problem there and given input on possible improvements. If this is your point, I don't know why you're arguing against me.

At the end of the day, Final Fantasy XIV is no different to the older games, other than the fact that you need a group of other, real, people. In fact, in every way that matters, it is superior. People (yourself included) are pretending that the older games were somehow better in this regard, which is completely false.

I said as much in my original posts, how where the old games better when it comes to exploration or danger? They weren't. XIV clearly wins on exploration (compare Alexandria up to Dali, to the start of XIV to Sastasha. Alexandria to Dali is pretty much linear, XIV the moment you're out of the starting city you could technically travel to Mor Dhona). Danger? All random encounters became a drag, very quickly. They were not dangerous. They added no tension to the games. Just like getting hit by gravity in XIV

The fact that all of these instanced dungeons are outside of the overworld world is exactly what makes the world feel so cramped and devoid of exploration. It's completely contrast to every other Final Fantasy game where the entirety of the game was a part of the world. When the overworld itself feels cramped and there's nowhere to go, there's hardly a reason to explore the world. And it's not even a case of "well it's not interesting after you've seen everything for the first time." It's more a case of "it's not interesting the first time you see it" because there's barely anything in it at all. Everything interesting is locked away behind the duty finder.

As for danger, I certainly don't remember all of the FF titles being quite as easy to roll through as this game is. IIRC, they even toned down the difficulty for the NA version of FFIV because they felt it would be too difficult for NA audiences, and that was back when even many NA games had some challenge in mind. I seriously doubt anyone would consider the main game in FFXIV ARR too difficult for any audience on Earth.

[Kiayin]

Well, as long as you don't start in Limsa Lominsa. Anyway, my point was it wouldn't be instant, and you would have to avoid monsters which can one shot you at that level (*cough*danger*cough*). People only think the world is small because once you've gotten to the end, you can travel everywhere easily with teleports. The exact same holds true in the old games, traveling Gaia in IX isn't hard once you have an airship, just like traveling Eorzea isn't hard once you can teleport. People complaining that XIV is some how less in this regard are bordering on delusional...

Mob density is so low that you hardly need to avoid anything actually. You do have a point about the exploration bit never being FF's forte - but ARR's completely devoid of it. Anyway - people compare Eorzea to other mmo worlds - and compared to a lot of them, Eorzea's pretty tiny - whether you teleport everywhere or not. ^^;.

[Sotek]

No. What makes the world feel so cramped and devoid of exploration is the fact that you've already explored it. Nobody, and I mean nobody, walked into Coerthas for the first time, their map completely blank, and didn't feel some sense of exploration from that. You didn't know what was around the corner at that point. That is when exploration was alive in XIV.

Removing the Duty Finder? That wouldn't solve the issue, though it would be nice. You're not going to be running to Amdapor Keep for the bajillionth time and feeling any sense of exploration, because it will be the bajillionth time you're trod that path.
Making bigger zones? Again, doesn't solve the issue. Just means you spend slightly longer exploring a zone. Once you've explored it though, you've still explored it, and you have the exact same problem we have now.

The problem with exploration is one of creating a feeling of sustained exploration. Single player titles didn't need to worry about this, you explored, finished the game, done. MMOs? you explored, then you grind levels, gear, whatever. The only real solution to this problem is frequent content updates which include new zones to explore. Again, if you played a single player title like you do a MMO, you'd have the exact same problem. You get an airship. You can travel from the Ice Cavern to the final dungeon in a matter of seconds. Exploration is dead by the end of any game. And as for "everything interesting is locked away behind the duty finder", I disagree with that completely, and I could go about posting dozens of pictures to refute it, but at this point I really cannot be asked. All the challenging "random encounter" level mobs are, certainly. Landmarks however, there are interesting ones literally round every corner which would have elicited some reaction upon first discovering them. I remember discovering Urth's Fount quite fondly. Though that was during beta when the level cap was "Go here and you will die".

As for difficulty, well, I certainly never had trouble with random encounters in any RPG outside the initial learning period of the game. After that it's just "Can I one hit this with simple attacks? Yes? Mash A. No? What is this weak to?" etc. Bosses were the only real challenge in any of the old games, when I got "stuck" in any of them, it wasn't a matter of "this random encounter is too hard!", it was a matter of "this boss is too hard, better grind easy random encounters to level".

[Susanoh]

No. What makes the world feel so cramped and devoid of exploration is the fact that you've already explored it. Nobody, and I mean nobody, walked into Coerthas for the first time, their map completely blank, and didn't feel some sense of exploration from that.

Removing the Duty Finder? That wouldn't solve the issue, though it would be nice. You're not going to be running to Amdapor Keep for the bajillionth time and feeling any sense of exploration, because it will be the bajillionth time you're trod that path.
Making bigger zones? Again, doesn't solve the issue. Just means you spend slightly longer exploring a zone. Once you've explored it though, you've still explored it.

The problem with exploration is one of creating a feeling of sustained exploration. Single player titles didn't need to worry about this, you explored, finished the game, done. MMOs? you explored, then you grind levels, gear, whatever. The only real solution to this problem is frequent content updates which include new zones to explore.

As for difficulty, well, I certainly never had trouble with random encounters in any RPG outside the initial learning period of the game. After that it's just "Can I one hit this with simple attacks? Yes? Mash A. No? What is this weak to?" etc. Bosses were the only real challenge in any of the old games, when I got "stuck" in any of them, it wasn't a matter of "this random encounter is too hard!", it was a matter of "this boss is too hard, better grind easy random encounters to level".

What makes the world feel cramped is undeniably that the world is very small in scale. As for exploration, I'm not sure if I'd call running around a bunch of small zones for the first time like ARR's Coerthas an experience in exploration. Sure, technically you are exploring, but you can easily see everything there is to see in no time at all and there's no branching paths that would make it interesting anyway. You walk around that zone once and that's it, it's done. Keep in mind this is a 2013 game, and one would expect improvements on what we'd seen 20+ years ago on 8-16 bit consoles. If we compare this game to 1.0 where I could walk around for twice the amount of time and still not see every path, and at times run into seamless connected "zones" branching off of the main path, all of which have been either instanced or removed entirely, it feels fairly bare. You could make the argument that even after you've gone through every one of those zones, there's no more need for "exploring," but I would still say that a large and expansive world remains more interesting than a small and cramped one even after there's no more need to explore it. When I played FFXI I returned to many "dungeon" style areas for plenty of reasons even after I'd seen them the first time, even after I'd finished exploring them. Exping in unconventional areas (even if just for a change of pace), skill ups, farming, quests, NMs, or whatever else there is. If half or more than half of those areas had been locked away for structured dungeons, it would have severely limited what I'm able to go out and do in the world, and that's the situation that FF14 ARR is in and will continue to be in as long as instancing content is the primary focus on the development team. And again, some people might enjoy that type of game (some games are based around that type of play and nothing else), but it's not necessarily for everyone.

[Otoha]

Lack of danger and nothing worth farming for in any zone period.

Those are both things that kill off exploration and sense of adventure, period.

An example, when I had played ffxi for a few months pre abyssea, I felt sense of danger in multiple zones, I felt the need to farm certain nms for rare drops, and I'm referring to starting cities and zones around them. So this feeling I had doesn't even include expansions.

[Kiayin]

The problem with exploration is one of creating a feeling of sustained exploration. Single player titles didn't need to worry about this, you explored, finished the game, done. MMOs? you explored, then you grind levels, gear, whatever. The only real solution to this problem is frequent content updates which include new zones to explore. Again, if you played a single player title like you do a MMO, you'd have the exact same problem. You get an airship. You can travel from the Ice Cavern to the final dungeon in a matter of seconds. Exploration is dead by the end of any game.

I guess I've been spoiled - but my mmorpg's of choice all had cavern systems, secret areas and little things for me to discover years down the road. Maps so large that I'd still get lost from time to time, hidden achievements and all sorts of treats. ARR's maps have the trees marked down.

As for difficulty, well, I certainly never had trouble with random encounters in any RPG outside the initial learning period of the game. After that it's just "Can I one hit this with simple attacks? Yes? Mash A. No? What is this weak to?" etc. Bosses were the only real challenge in any of the old games, when I got "stuck" in any of them, it wasn't a matter of "this random encounter is too hard!", it was a matter of "this boss is too hard, better grind easy random encounters to level".

My experience's been different. From Lotro to GW- I've had plenty of those moments, and they were extremely memorable. It can be done right - whether people want it or not is up for debate. This is an opinion thread after all - and different people like different things.