Some things I think need to be brought to attention

[Sotek]

Coerthas may be a bad example, considering it is an underdeveloped region (with at least three other zones being introduced later), while the others (sans Mor Dhona) offer much more to explore. But even then, no branching paths? Are you kidding? If you're exploring the zone (not following the quests), then there are plenty of branches there... Two steps in from North Shroud and you have the first one for crying out loud... Heck, exploring in RPGs usually means going the opposite direction to where you want to go (I found a split in this dungeon, I continue on one way, there is the boss, travel back to explore that other path first). In which case, moment I entered Coerthas I traveled towards Boulder Downs and Snowcloak. Heck, when I explored Coerthas, I ran around going "This is going to be a path to a future zone, neat" a lot. It was pretty damn fun, did it a lot during the first few days. That is how you explore, you don't go there because the quest pointed you that way, you just go there because you're exploring, and more often than not you'll be doing it at a lower level than intended so there is your sense of danger.

I guess I've been spoiled - but my mmorpg's of choice all had cavern systems, secret areas and little things for me to discover years down the road. Maps so large that I'd still get lost from time to time, hidden achievements and all sorts of treats. ARR's maps have the trees marked down. .

Problem I have with such maps is that they often become unmemorable because there is just a lot of nothing between noteworthy places. XIV suffers from the exact opposite problem where there is so much in each zone that it's kind of overwhelming and I forget various areas just because there is so much in one zone. Amberscale Rock isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I try to think about Central Shroud, for example.

[Susanoh]

By branching paths I'm talking about places within the zone you can actually get lost in and be taken in an entirely different direction. For example, in 1.0 you could run around bloodshore just like any other zone, but if you head through a cavern you'd find yourself underground in an area big enough to be a small zone by itself. FFXI didn't have such seamless transitions (edit: by the way, that's not to say it didn't have interesting zones aside from the main path, because it did, just that it wasn't quite as seamless as in 1.0 most likely due to hardware limitations), but if it did, it would be along the lines of what Ordelle's Caves were to La Theine. If ARR didn't instance every interesting piece of content, maybe you'd be able to wander into a place like Dzemael Darkhold and have a look around. But it doesn't, so you're completely limited to the standard zones and once you've had a quick run around them, that's the end of it aside from instanced content. There's no open world caves, mines, ruins, etc. to get lost in along the "main" path to explore once or return to at any point in the future.

[Sotek]

I think you're being a bit too generous calling the instanced content in XIV interesting, I at least find Coerthas has more interesting landmarks than Dzemeal Darkhold. Coerthas with Dzemael Darkhold as openworld content would pale in comparison to Ordelle's Caves (though Ordelle's Caves had a waterfall and that hidden passage? Can't remember much more about it that was particularly interesting. Not that Dzemeal Darkhold is much better, but I guess that's my point), though with maps being what they are in XIV I can't really ever see myself ever getting lost. Short of poorly designed maps (I'm looking at you, Kazham) it would just be impossible. XI it was possible because you had to buy the maps, heck it was possible after you had the map because looking at the map was a royal pain in comparison to XIV.

This does remind me of a suggestion I posted a while back, though, which is somewhat relevant; open up instanced dungeons after certain quests have been completed. So, the dungeons become a proper zone, and a fair few of them have plenty of blocked off paths that could be utilized. It would be a stretch to find a purpose for some of them, but the zones are already there, it wouldn't be too difficult to just open them up.

[Susanoh]

I'd agree that Ordelle's Caves has Dzemael Darkhold beat. But I still think that the open world needs areas similar to these to remain interesting. Speaking of FFXI, the game had quite a few areas like this even pre-Zilart. It had the big open areas like the forrests in Ronfaure, plains in La Theine, beaches in Valkurm, etc. but also had the ancient looking Horutoto Ruins, a dark underground prison in Bostaunieux Oubliette, mines of Gusgen and Palborough, Fei'Yin, Delkfutt's Tower, King Ranperre's Tomb, Castle Zvhal Bailey's...all of these were dungeon like areas of varying difficulty levels, some of them contained mobs that would tear you apart if you were unprepared or not paying attention, even at the highest levels. I'm not trying to turn this into a FFXI vs. FFXIV debate, but merely pointing out that this is the type of variety that I would expect in an interesting online FF overworld. ARR might not be completely lacking in terms of overall content, but with absolutely zero areas like this, it completely fails as an overworld IMHO.

By the way, by "interesting" I don't necessarily mean that something like Ordelle's Caves is going to blow your mind, just that it adds flavor and variety to a world that would otherwise feel completely bare bones without it. Having Caves under La Theine adds a slight layer of depth that just wouldn't be there if it were just a gigantic plain and nothing else. A zone like King Ranpherre's Tomb even connects Ronfaure to an isolated location in Jugner Forrest, which gives you a perfect sense of scale as to where you are in the world and where you just traveled. In an FF game, you expect to find some caves sometimes in the world. You expect to find a Castle, or a tower, not just remain in an outdoor forrest or desert the entire time. As far as I know ARR is the only FF game with an overworld that never, ever ever lets you explore an area like this within that open world.

[AunaYuuki]

Wish my server had more jokes. :<

[Senfei]

I think what Sotek is trying to convey is that no matter how much "exploration" you put in an MMO, eventually it will become stale. No matter how many nooks and crannies SE throws into a zone, people who care -will- find them all. Then what? It's why I also don't understand what people are wanting when they say they want exploration.

The only way I can see these people being happy is if there were randomly generated zones ala Minecraft worlds that you enter with random chests and puzzles scattered throughout. As cool as that would be, I can't even begin to imagine how much work that would take to accomplish successfully.

[Sotek]

The only way I can see these people being happy is if there were randomly generated zones ala Minecraft worlds that you enter with random chests and puzzles scattered throughout. As cool as that would be, I can't even begin to imagine how much work that would take to accomplish successfully.

I'd actually like to see something like this for Free Companies, a Frontier sort of zone. Can't see much other reason for us to build our own Airship...

Plop us in the middle of a randomly generated zone. Disciples of Land gather resources, Disciples of War/Magic defend them, Disciples of Hand build a base (similar to Housing). That allows FATEs to spawn with monsters attacking your base, which needs defending. You can then explore the area, with Disciples of Land/Hand overcoming obstacles (cutting down a dense forest, building a bridge, etc.), with the end result being a (non-random) dungeon that is discovered. This is what happens when I play Minecraft while fishing... Doesn't even really need to be randomly generated, to be honest.

Wish my server had more jokes. :<

We have plenty of jokes.

[Susanoh]

I think what Sotek is trying to convey is that no matter how much "exploration" you put in an MMO, eventually it will become stale. No matter how many nooks and crannies SE throws into a zone, people who care -will- find them all. Then what? It's why I also don't understand what people are wanting when they say they want exploration.

The only way I can see these people being happy is if there were randomly generated zones ala Minecraft worlds that you enter with random chests and puzzles scattered throughout. As cool as that would be, I can't even begin to imagine how much work that would take to accomplish successfully.

Yeah, I get that point, and it's well taken.

But I'd like to note that while randomly generated zones is another subject entirely, it wouldn't take something on that scale to please me personally. I'd settle for a world that was fun to explore the first time and had enough scale and variety that it remained interesting enough to exist in even it it had been explored in its entirety. I don't think the ARR world is terrible (edit: or what's there right now, I should say), I just think it feels unfinished and bare due to the devs choosing to make anything beyond the most basic open areas instanced.

[Dyvid]

I think the key issue with dungeons is old school perception. People who played EQ or FFXI look at dungeons like Garlaige Citadel, Eldieme Necropolis, or even Grand Palace of Hu'Xzoi but that's not FFXIV or modern MMOs anymore. People toss the word theme park around a lot so let go with that. If FFXIV:ARR is a theme park than instance content is the ride. It's set on rails and allows the dev to create a unique experience that you just can't do in open world content. Think of a boss fight and then imagine what it would like as a FATE with everyone in range zerg.

Remember that 2.0 is a early in it's life and that expansion of the world takes time. It's also fair to note that they rebuilt the entire world in under 3 years which is a huge undertaking. In a recent interview Yoshi-P said he wants add more exploration into the game.