Questions/Theories About Coil (Long Read SPOILERS)

[Skies]

If you remember the story after you do CT you will remember
That Acheron is not a giant, sure he has been mutated and altered by the Allagan but he was the leader of a rebellion, captured, transformed into a super-soldier and mind-controlled

[RolandDebreton]

If you remember the story after you do CT you will remember
That Acheron is not a giant, sure he has been mutated and altered by the Allagan but he was the leader of a rebellion, captured, transformed into a super-soldier and mind-controlled

Think you meant to speculate into this thread:

Allagan Speculation

[Marishi-Ten]

The pieces of Dalamud don't actually contain Bahamut. He's actually underground beneath the Carteneau Flats (his head is anyway), and the Dalamud pieces are, for some reason, all leading to where he is. Alisaie notes that the bindings on Bahamut's wrist are strikingly similar to those on Twintania, hinting that they may have actually been able to control him to some extent.

Ahhh, I didn't know that. Makes more sense now!

/cracks knuckles.

Long have I waited for a chance to ramble on about this....

This is an extremely plausible theory! I always interpreted the large pulsating thing to be his heart (I believe Alisaie called it such, but she could be mistaken).

I'm so glad we're talking about boulder downs. I was looking around there and comparing the Crystal formations with others found in Eorzea.

Four things stuck out to me: the Crystal formation envelops the allagan structure almost like a dome, this domed formation also seems like it was layered in some way, the Crystal is extremely dull which leads me to believe that it has been there for a very long time, AND the giants are there.

I don't believe boulder downs has any thing to do with Dalamud aside from having allagan origins. I believe it's another instance of them trying to keep something hidden away, but was eventually found.

Exactly! Boulder Downs is unlike anything found in Eorzea. To me, it seems like the structure was unearthed rather then falling from the sky:

1.) The structure isn't mangled or broken (like the Dalamud piece imbedded in The Nail). It's entirely intact with almost no damage at all to it.

2.) The structure is built into a natural depression that could also be seen in 1.23. Even in 1.23, you can see the depression and you can see the rings that show similar patterns to the crystal formation (see screenshots).

3.) The structure looks complete. Heck, there is even an entry way into the base of the structure (albeit closed off see screenshots).

4.) The crystal coloring isn't congruent with other pieces of Dalamud (Over aspected/orange coloring/chaotic crystal) but gives off a dark red hue that seems dull (giving the impression that it's been there for a long LONG time).

5.) There are lights on the structure much like we see on the Allagan Tomestones of Philosophy and Mythology. We know the Tomestones act similar to hard drives and contain information of all kinds related to the Allag civilization (leading to my assumption that the structure is a repository of sorts).

6.) Ah, the Giants. I didn't think of this one. It does seem odd that they are there much like how they roam the area around Crystal Tower (the only confirmed standing Allagan structure). Makes sense that they would also be in Boulder Downs and Crystal Tower as both may be OF Eorzea and not of Dalamud etc.

7.) Dalamud crashing to the ground caused major shifts in climate as well as terrain. I would imagine one of the "swords" could have struck a fault line causing a tectonic shift (earthquake) that caused the structure to become visible.

The Nail:


Boulder Downs (showing the crystal ridges):


Allagan Structure (showing that there is power going to it):


Bottom view of the Allagan Structure:


Top view of the Allagan Structure:


Allagan Structure Entrance (Thanks Razia Sultana for putting the entrance into perspective!):


1.23b Boulder Downs:

People have speculated that Acheron is actually a giant and another person has speculated that the Crystal Tower is a prison. Acheron's chamber(cell) is called the Hall of the Inexorable, which means something that cannot be stopped, persuaded, or altered. This leads me to believe that Acheron was actually the leader of a Giant rebellion. Perhaps Acheron was chosen to guard CT as punishment while his comrades were imprisoned in boulder downs?

From the NOAH report it gives information about Archeron being a great Allagan General and supporter of the people. The Empire however, paints him as a usurper and traitor attempting to cause civil war. As punishment, his mind was re conditioned and his body was fitted with modifications (he was also used as an example to de motivate others with the same ideals. Some fates are worse than death. To be robbed of your free will and serve as a gatekeeper for eternity is a prime example. Can't kill him as it would make him a martyr strengthening peoples resolve against the Emperor. What they did to Archeron is a win/win for the Allag).

Archeron cannot be persuaded or stopped because he doesn't have the capacity to. The Allagan Empire robbed him of that.

From what I understand, Crystal Tower was built to house the tomb of the first Allagan Emperor, Xendu, as the Allagan believed that one day he would awaken and lead his people to glory (much like Egyptian beliefs and mythology. Take a close look around the Labyrinth of The Ancients. You will notice a theme of "eyes". Eyes are everywhere, but are mostly seen in the final area. Egyptians have a God with the Symbol of an eye. Horus. The God of sun, war and protection).

[RolandDebreton]

I always interpreted the large pulsating thing to be his heart (I believe Alisaie called it such, but she could be mistaken).

Oh its even better, she spells it out as a cryst that pulsaltes like a heart!

"This is...this is Bahamut's head! And that enormous crystal─it pulsates as if...as if it were a heart! Then the primal that had awakened...was Bahamut all this time!?" Alisaie - Primal Awakening

[NoloeTazier]

Don't confuse pieces of Dalamud and the orange overaspected aether, while some of the orange crystal may indeed be pieces of Dalamud the aether itself incases it has become overaspected. Dalamud itself would simply be red without the aether/energy of Bahamut pulsating through it. The Nail itself could have indeed be named not after the mountain but whatever these "devices" are that allow us to travel to the "Binding Coil of Bahamut." After all there were many mountains in Coerthas and not all had a special name on the map, also just south of Boulder Downs is the "Hall of the Seven Echoes," and what echoes more than caves. The destructive force of the debris from Dalamud merely uncovered these devices. I would almost say that maybe this "red ball" was encompassing the device and that the debris of Dalamud merely broke it up and allowed us to now see it exposed..but I'd wonder where all the debris left over on the ground would be and it's simply not there...so my theory is it's Dalamud pieces that just happened to hit (scripted of course by SE) to hit the right places just enough to make these magical things happen.

[Fendred]

I guess my question is... are the elder primals really so unkillable, or did the allagan empire merely keep them alive and under control because it was convenient? They seem to have complete control of Bahamut with their technology, and that means they knew enough about Bahamut's anatomy to enslave it. I honestly think they could kill it if they wanted to, but refused to because it was such a powerful weapon to use against their adversaries. Aka, it is very possible that blowing up Bahamut's aetheric heart could permanently kill Bahamut, since it would make sense for the allag to keep bahamut practically dead until they want to unleash him considering how much damage he could do with even a minimal amount of movement.

Edit: Also, think about how much effort it takes to summon a regular primal. To resummon bahamut would require a tremendous amount of energy and jeopardizes the environment itself. So instead of going through the hassle of fully dismissing Bahamut, the allags just leave him in a semi-dead, semi-unsummoned state.

I guess we won't know if we actually kill bahamut that way until the story moves forward, although I'd really like to see some characters try to whole giant laser to kill Sin kind of thing against Bahamut's heart. That would at least let us get a better idea of what we're dealing with.

[Marishi-Ten]

I guess my question is... are the elder primals really so unkillable, or did the allagan empire merely keep them alive and under control because it was convenient? They seem to have complete control of Bahamut with their technology, and that means they knew enough about Bahamut's anatomy to enslave it. I honestly think they could kill it if they wanted to, but refused to because it was such a powerful weapon to use against their adversaries. Aka, it is very possible that blowing up Bahamut's aetheric heart could permanently kill Bahamut, since it would make sense for the allag to keep bahamut practically dead until they want to unleash him considering how much damage he could do with even a minimal amount of movement.

Ahhh, but perhaps they didn't have complete control. That would explain why he's drawn, quartered, buried, and scattered. It's obvious the Allagan feared Bahamut but were able to subvert him to an extent (or for a time). I don't imagine them encompassing him or his aetherial form in what looks to be precious metal, plotting a trajectory that is difficult even for us, and launching him into space for convenience. People go to extremes out of fear.

We know very little about Primals and even less about Elder Primals but one thing is confirmed, they can't be killed. They are not of the physical world. Primals are born out of condensed Aether (crystals) and the will of enough people. Elder Primals "appear" to not need either and can "summon" themselves at will.

If Bahamut can summon himself at will, they wouldn't be able to kill him. The next best thing would be to imprison him and make it so NO ONE could unleash him onto the World (orbit/insane defense systems/etc.). Also, things got really wonky the close Dalamud came to Hydalaen. Perhaps by keeping Bahamut so far away, he couldn't draw on the Aether to free himself or able to manipulate it keeping him in a weakened state (Van Darnus I believe was absorbed as Aether into Dalamud I believe perhaps adding to Bahamuts strength).

We know that Primals can be imprisoned (Silvertear Lake) but there aren't any records of any being truly killed and Elder Primals are a whole other level (I want to say the Odin was a man at one point that slew Urth over a perceived slight whereas Urth cursed him to walk the land forever? I'm probably WAY off on that, though it would give an interesting insight of why Louisoux and Van Darnus are in Coil).

[Skies]

On your note about Odin there, Marishi-Ten, gotta remember his words:
"Here I stand, a god among men. Yet here I remain, a man among gods" (grammar errors of mine aside)

You theory seems to hold SOME weight, it would fit his words (a god among men, he's a primal, a men among gods, he was a man and turned into something kin to a primal)

[RolandDebreton]

Square is trying to lead us to some conclusion by using the phrase Elder Primal. Special demarcations such as this are practically an author, script writer, story-planner screaming and pointing to some bigger point they are trying to make:



It could simply be a matter of antecedent vs. sequential - First came the Prime primal, then came the Elder Primals, then came the secondary Primals, now were to tertiary primals. Each of them is essentially in nature like their predecessors, order is just an organizational tool. Based on Alisaie's postulation that Bahamut should have dissolved into aether, my guess is the Scions, Students, and Sharlayans felt this was the case. Makes the most sense in the general use of "eld," the older one.

It could be a matter of substantial nature; i.e. Bahamut is a real being of deific nature sustained by aether, Leviathan is a lesser or insubstantial being (The heart of the Indigo Deep, the nature of water, the wildness of the seas given flesh, the Astral attunement of Water, etc) given substance by aether. So to use a philosophical idea Bahamut has substance free of the strict necessity of aether (he will not survive long without its sustenance, but would leave behind a corpse like a starved man); whereas Leviathan has no real independent existence until given that shape, and goes up in a poof of smoke when defeated/deprived of Aether (that is all he is).

It could be metaphysical origin - Bahamut was a mighty dragon, Odin was a glorious soldier, etc and they were taken and made into their present estate by means of an external power, where as Ifrit is the Ubermensch realization of Amalj'aa ideals made flesh by the same "Primalificiation" the Ascians teach everyone, in order to drink away Hydaelyn's aether.

It could be a matter of how much Aether you are pumped with. The sheer power argument. I'm betting Bahamut is so big because he has an absolutely insane amount of aether in him (my current pet theory being he's got Zodiark pumping in his chest). My theory gets shakey with Odin, who… well hes been a lalafell….



But…. His size could be less a matter of fitting tightly inside a moon and instead his utter fungal infection like proclivity to keep emerging like a genii with no one needing to rub his lamp.

So there are my arguments of etymology, ontology, cosmology, and power.

Despite my theories on Zodiark I don't think it’s a simply a power argument, or an argument of etymology and order. The "Elder" terminology we are getting seems to be nomenclature the npcs have and are getting from some source (likely Allagan texts - they were the presumptive origins of Summoning). Thus, they knew about non-Elder primals. I'm heavily leaning to nature and/or origins.

I think everyone is on the right track; its Odin. Our interactions with "standard grade" primals such as Ifrit and Titan are similar in nature. Even Garuda Extreme (here is your power difference) and Ifrit normal mode are of similar ilk, nature, overall power, and origin.

Odin and Bahamut are called the same thing, and yet are wildly different beings. Bahamut was massive, went global with his attacks, was utterly violent, and even chose out one particular competitor (Louisoix). Odin is comparatively speaking, normal. He even seems lost, confused and frustrated. He rides around the Black Shroud disrupting the weather and aetheric patterns by his very presence and then, goes away. Or if defeated just comes back, bearing the appearance of one of his former competitors.

Marishi made a very good point. Elder primals do not seem to need crystal and the will of others to survive. I'm fairly certain no one is willing Odin to still march about and… well I don't quite know what to make of Bahamut. I tend to wonder of Ascians didn't hobble enough of Dalamud back together to make a life support system for him (the head is the only part largely undamaged, and not covered in a rime of condensed corrupted aether.)

I don't think we have the tools yet, or enough info. We are going to have to discover more of what Allag did to create or interact with these two. I'm pretty sure that their origins and nature will tell us a whole lot of revelationary information about our world.

[AndrewAlexander]

I'm thinking similar to FFVII - Dalamud could have been a vessle and Bahamut the conduit to draw the energy from the planet and use it as a source of propulsion OR maybe Dalamud was used to open the barrier to Hydalaen/Zodiark and the Allagans transcended into the form that is the Ascians. FF games always have some ancient power that discovered a means to meet their maker.