Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output

[Instrumentality]

You actually don't want to use Berserk on CD because it ends up contributing less over time than if you only use it once every 120 seconds while you've got Unchained. The reason for this is pretty simple: the 33% damage increase from Unchained balances out the loss of contribution from artificially increasing the CD by 33% (90->120) but it also reduces the loss in damage from the Pacification effect from it by 33% for the same reason.

If you've got IR, you want to use Unchained>Berserk>IR in that order whenever you've got Unchained up and use IR on CD otherwise (it's a 60 sec CD compared to Unchained's 120).

So assuming you have a healer that can clear the Pacification debuff within ~1 second of it hitting your WAR you should use Berserk on cooldown?

[Vanifae]

would you want your DPS to help heal? would you want your healers to help tank? nope and nope. so no thank you, but ill just let my tank do the tanking

Such a pedestrian response, there is nothing wrong with wanting to produce the most damage you can as a tank in fact I highly encourage it. Holding threat is not hard, it's the easiest part of being a tank. The difference between a great tank and a satisfactory one is knowing when to use your cooldowns effectively and eking out he most damage you can while not crippling your role. I find this discussion useful because knowing what combos are high threat and high damage is useful for when you cans witch to damage mode once you have a good lead.

[Menae]

So assuming you have a healer that can clear the Pacification debuff within ~1 second of it hitting your WAR you should use Berserk on cooldown?

Probably not, because A) that's pretty tight timing, B) the healer might have to heal at that moment, and C) the healer could cast a damage spell instead of Esuna/Leeches and possibly do more, especially if it's a SCH (they have a few damage spells which CANNOT miss).

[bokchoykn]

Kitru debunked this already. This just isn't a good idea, ever.

I always start with two BB combos. And two consecutive BBs for every tank swap. (Voke in between the first). No point in doing 3 BBs in a row though. I only included BB*N as a "gear" because it actually occurs in every fight (snap aggro) but it doesn't fit in with the other "gears". I should have labeled it as "Snap Enmity" instead of Max Enmity"

You lose Storm's Path for at least 1 GCD, probably two, three if you're using IB and Fracture both. Unless you're hurting for aggro, you should just alternate SP and BB to maintain SP permanently or use SP-SE-BB for the damage boost. If I really need to generate more enmity, I'd rather use Unchained + Berserk + SE/BB/BB to get a big lead at a time when I can afford it (with Bloodbath to account for the lost mitigation), then fall back on SP/BB for staying alive.

Fair enough. Letting SE fall for a second isn't the worst thing most of the time, but SE/BB is probably better.

Much more important use of this: it's what the OT does when you have two WARs. MT can use SP/BB and OT can use SE/BB. Both buffs stay up, max damage is achieved.

I agree with this set-up for WAR MT, WAR OT.

Don't meld critical hit rate for WAR. It is the least-valuable of all secondary stats. Skill speed is best up to a point, especially if you're using Sauteed Coeurl. The extra hit in Berserk alone is more than you can get in total from CHR. Max damage and mitigation rate come from skill speed, but you also get increased resource drain. Determination is a good compromise, especially if you're going to mix-and-match with i90 at times and can't guarantee enough skill speed to get the extra hit off. Critical hit rate just plain sucks for WAR since all crit bonuses are flat.

It depends. I prioritized DET first, but took Crit second because, while it's lesser DPS, it also increases Damage per TP. The most important fights where I use my i70 set are Turn 4 and Titan, and I use a ton of TP on both of those fights. Skill Speed did cross my mind, but went with Crit anyway. You can make a case for either. The difference is <1%.

In fights I use my i70 set, I use Buttons over Sauteed Coeurl.

You can do double WW with 6500 HP. If you're doing any other method, it's even less damage. You absolutely do not need i90 VIT for Garuda EX.

You don't need i90 VIT for any fight. I think it's arguable, but it has more to do with what the bigger risk in the fight is. What is more valuable: 20% extra damage or that extra 25 VIT? I use i70 in this fight as MT, but I rarely ever MT it.

[Kitru]

I always start with two BB combos. And two consecutive BBs for every tank swap. (Voke in between the first). No point in doing 3 BBs in a row though. I only included BB*N as a "gear" because it actually occurs in every fight (snap aggro) but it doesn't fit in with the other "gears". I should have labeled it as "Snap Enmity" instead of Max Enmity"

You shouldn't need more than 1 BB combo at the start of the fight. The only reason you might need more than that is if you've got a PLD OT in Shield Oath running in right behind you and blowing FoF immediately while doing RoH spam. For tank swaps, you should be preloading an SS or BB, which gives you everything you need in order to cement your enmity. The only possible reason that you might need more is the same situation you would need to lead with 2 BBs: an idiot OT that has no idea that they're not supposed to generate craptons of enmity when it's not their turn to tank.

The best opening enmity generator that I've seen (and what I use) is BB combo>SE combo(Vengeance)>HS(Unchained)>SS(Berserk)>BB>BB combo>BB combo and then swap over to SP>BB or SP>SE>BB. The enmity cushion you'll generate with that opener is obscene. You can do the same HS(Unchained)>SS(Berserk)>BB>BB combo for tank swaps, though I've never found it necessary since you shouldn't *need* to generate a crapton of enmity with a tank spot. It has the further advantage of being a huge amount of damage as well.

Generating a huge cushion of enmity at the start of a fight is pretty much *the* most important element (aside from your choice of rotation) of maximizing damage output in my experience; it gives you the operating space to actually use the high DPS rotations you should be wanting to use without getting bowled over by overzealous DPS.

[bokchoykn]

You shouldn't need more than 1 BB combo at the start of the fight. The only reason you might need more than that is if you've got a PLD OT in Shield Oath running in right behind you and blowing FoF immediately while doing RoH spam. For tank swaps, you should be preloading an SS or BB, which gives you everything you need in order to cement your enmity.

That's what i meant with "And two consecutive BBs for every tank swap. (Voke in between the first)."

My preferred tank swap method is: HT (Voke) SS BB HT SS BB

With SE debuff on, of course.

For snap aggro on newly spawned mobs, I prefer to pre-load HT SS, and the first attack is BB.

[Gamemako]

What is more valuable: 20% extra damage or that extra 25 VIT? I use i70 in this fight as MT, but I rarely ever MT it.

Damage, by far, considering the VIT is basically all waste.

YThe best opening enmity generator that I've seen (and what I use) is BB combo>SE combo(Vengeance)>HS(Unchained)>SS(Berserk)>BB>BB combo>BB combo and then swap over to SP>BB or SP>SE>BB.

If the enemy isn't a loser like Garuda or Titan who run away after 15 seconds, then I use BBc -> SPc -> BBc -> Bloodbath -> HS -> Unchained -> M -> Berserk -> SE -> BBc -> IB -> Infuriate -> BBc -> IB. Pretty much only ever time to do that on a few lame BC enemies like Caduceus, though. (Requires the skill speed to get 9 attacks in Berserk, and the finish with Inner Beast that lands with full damage since it bypasses Defiance after Unchained has expired.)

//EDIT: Oh, I also tend to start the fight with Featherfoot.

[Kitru]

(Requires the skill speed to get 9 attacks in Berserk, and the finish with Inner Beast that lands with full damage since it bypasses Defiance after Unchained has expired.)

I tend to use IB right as Unchained fades (which, with the 0 speed from gear that I've got, happens after the second BB following Berserk use finishes) for the same reason: you get a Berserk (and IR, which I forgot to include; I use it on the second GCD after Berserk, which is a Heavy Swing, which ensures that there are 2 BB combos and the end IB getting the benefit of the +crit) buffed IB without wasting any Unchained benefits. I acknowledge that the opening attack string I mention there wastes a few generated Wrath stacks, but the goal was to maximize enmity and an extra Unchained BB beats out pretty much anything else.

//EDIT: Oh, I also tend to start the fight with Featherfoot.

I start the fight off with Vengeance for a couple reasons: it gives the 5th Wrath stack so that you can go into the Unchained/Berserked BB combos right away, but it also provides a bigger enmity cushion because you're getting the 50 potency hits that also benefit from Unchained and Berserk.

I start blowing Foresight/Featherfoot when Vengeance or the Pacification on Berserk Fade (since that's right around when the IB buff fades).

Assuming, one NPC attack per GCD, the rotation I use manages (each parenthesis represents a GCD)...

BB combo: (83.33 + 150) + (83.33 + 200 * 3) + (83.33 + 280 * 5) +
SE combo(Vengeance): (83.33 + 150) + (83.33 + 190) + ((83.33 + 270) * 1.2) +
HS(Unchained)>SS(Berserk)>BB: ((83.33 + 150 + 50) * 1.2 / .9) + ((83.33 + 200 * 3 + 50) * 1.2 / .9 / .75) + ((83.33 + 280 * 5 + 50) * 1.2 / .9 / .75 * 1.4) +
BB combo(Vengeance and SE debuff fade at the end): ((83.33 + 150 + 50) * 1.2 / .9 / .75 * 1.4) + ((83.33 + 200 * 3 + 50) * 1.2 / .9 / .75 * 1.4) + ((83.33 + 280 * 5 + 50) * 1.2 / .9 / .75 * 1.4) +
BB combo (Unchained fades at the end): ((83.33 + 150) * 1.2 / .75 * 1.4) + ((83.33 + 200 * 3) * 1.2 / .75 * 1.4) + ((83.33 + 280 * 5) * 1.2 / .75 * 1.4) +
Inner Beast (Berserk and Maim fade after): (83.33 + 300 / .75) * 1.2 * 1.4) =

2400.00 + 930.66 + 5497.76 + 6346.64 + 5375.98 + 811.99 = 21363.03 enmity over 16 GCDs = 1335.19 ePot/GCD (if you want to factor in the Pacification, it comes down to 1193.78 since you're adding 83.33 * .75 * 2 and dividing by 18 instead of 16)

The highest enmity rotation (SE>BB>BB>BB) generates 638.16 ePot/GCD with Wrath factored in (850.88 * .75), which means that you're generating more than double what you'd be able to generate otherwise in that opening volley. If you assume the SP>SE>BB as the standard (594.66 * .75 = 446.00), you'd be generating 3 times as much as you would generate normally.

To assuage my own curiosity and for comparison's sake (and since the damage/enmity maths I have in my sig are for 2.0), using a normalization multiplier (.8 / .75) for Shield Oath compared to Defiance, a PLD w/ RoH spam would generate 871.11 ePot/GCD (((83.33 + 25 + 25) * 3 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5) * (.8 / .75) / 3) normally (this doesn't factor in FoF, which is, on its own, is actually slightly stronger than Unchained and Berserk combined; IR + Wrath provide the *slightest* buff that brings the two constructs to roughly parity) and 1149.77 ePot/GCD (((83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5) * 4 + (250) + (250 * 2)) * (.8 / . 75) * 1.3 / 12) in its opening volley. Damage would be 305.77 pot/GCD ((83.33 + (150 + 200 + 260) / 3) * (.8 /.75) on average.

In an easier to read form...

Opening Enmity
PLD: 1149.77
WAR: 1335.19 (1193.78)

Average Enmity
PLD: 871.11
WAR (max enmity): 850.88
WAR (best standard): 594.66

Average Damage
PLD: 305.77
WAR (max enmity): 362.94
WAR (best standard): 369.48

(keep in mind, this is in WAR equivalences and assuming that the mean contributions of the WAR and PLD CD suites are equal)

There's a few things I ignored (Brutal Swing is minor, but using Steel Cyclone at every opportunity gives WAR a huge increase to enmity/GCD since it's basically an extra combo'd BB every 20 seconds or so), but it's close enough to get an accurate gauge. This largely groks with my own experiences and observations: a properly played PLD generates a stupidly huge amount of enmity just spamming their stuff (2.4-46.5% more than WAR) but WAR does a lot more damage (~20% more than PLD; when tanking alongside a WAR, it's only ~10% difference since PLD benefits from SE as well).

Anyways, that second half was a bit of a diversion from the original conversation. Let us continue to discuss maximizing WAR deeps.

[Rexus]

I melded myself some i70 jewelry and went back to do more primals this weekend, the results were great!

On Garuda/ifrit, I hit 180 DPS, and on titan I hit 200+ DPS. This is with only having defiance off before first tank swap, and then keeping it on the rest of the fight. On Garuda/titan, I completely ignored keeping SP up, and didn't have it up 100% of the time on ifrit either. Healers didn't complain and we never had tank deaths.

I really see no reason NOT to use a DPS set up on WAR for everything, I'm sure it's even fine MT'ing Twintania in a DPS set as well.

[Caraway]

This has been a really informative thread and it's more or less validating my opinions on the WAR in general (that if you're not taking some DPS into account while maintaining survivability you're not offering as much as you could be).

That said, I'm not able to afford the fully melded accessories (they're still going for nearly 1M on my server and I have zero luck with melding so don't do it myself) so I've looked into DPS accessories from Primals/Coil.

I worked up this build and am curious about what you folks think as something I should be shooting for with current end-game gear (I'm a good ways off but it's fun to plan!).

Until the last few posts here I had been thinking the value of Skill Speed just wasn't really worth the investment, and that DET/CRIT would be better investments of my points.

Would appreciate any tips though! I've been holding on to my Myth while waiting to get a Coil group going in my Linkshell, but if there are Myth pieces I should be looking at (and why) then it's spending time!