Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output

[SkyHighDN]

I may sound like an idiot here..... But you are comparing STR stats versus VIT states and I can understand both sides.... sweet out side the box thinking.

My question is now.... Is there EVER an opportunity to use DEX Stats.... Bard accessories???

Im just wondering is skill speed and DEX at all can do any kind of help.... maybe in running through combo's quicker in order to squeeze one more storm's path/storm's eye into rotation...

Id be curious if there is ANY content in which this could be useful.... and the question is USEFUL.... obviously not ideal under any circumstance

[Warrlordd]

would you want your DPS to help heal? would you want your healers to help tank? nope and nope. so no thank you, but ill just let my tank do the tanking

[Skull_Angel]

would you want your DPS to help heal? would you want your healers to help tank? nope and nope. so no thank you, but ill just let my tank do the tanking

Nope, but most Healers can and do contribute to DPS and, as a tank, if you can without compromise why not?

[bokchoykn]

would you want your DPS to help heal? would you want your healers to help tank? nope and nope. so no thank you, but ill just let my tank do the tanking

Whether you are a Tank, DPS or Healer, your job as a member of the Party is to maximize your party's chance to succeed.

To answer your question, no I would not want my DPS to help heal or my healers to help Tank because their abilities don't allow for them to optimally do either of those things.

If a Black Mage or Summoner casted Physick, it would come at a huge compromise to their damage output.

If a Healer was taking hits from mobs, their low HP and lack of defensive stats & abilities means that there is a huge risk of dying.

If you can't see the difference between the above examples and a Warrior pushing as much damage as he could, without any significant compromise to his primary job, then I don't know what else to say to you.

If a Warrior is doing 90 DPS when he could be doing 140 DPS, but he thinks it's okay because his class icon is Blue (Tank) and not Red (DPS), he's simply a bad Warrior.

[Warrlordd]

have YOU ever played a WAR? over the time of a whole fight, your self heals do enough healing to matter. Nothing that'll save ur life, but enough to be considered. CLEARLY though, you seem to have undervalued the overall effect of second wind, inner beast, bloodbath and storm's path.

[Kitru]

Max Enmity: Butcher's Block combo only - This is what you want to be doing to start a fight in order to build a healthy enmity lead on the rest of the party. For tank swaps, a couple of combo'ed Butcher's Blocks is enough to solidify aggro.

Not true. The highest enmity rotation for a WAR is SE>BB>BB>BB. BB spam generates 716.67 enmity potency per GCD ((150 + 200 * 3 + 280 *5) / 3). SE>BB>BB>BB generates 748.11 epot/GCD ((150 + 190 + 270 * 1.2 + (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) * 2 / .9 * 1.2 + (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) * 1.2) / 12). It also ends up doing more damage: BB spam is 210 potency/GCD ((150 + 200 + 280) / 3) while SE>BB>BB>BB generates 260.17 ((150 + 200 + 280 * 1.2 + (150 + 200 + 280) * 2 * 1.2 / .9 + (150 + 200 + 280) * 1.2) / 12).

There's no reason whatsoever to spam BB: it's worse damage *and* worse enmity than other options. Hell, SE>BB>BB is higher damage (268/GCD) and maintains virtually identical enmity generation (718.37/GCD; it's actually slightly better because Maim buffs auto-attack damage, providing an extra ~17 / GCD). I honestly have to wonder if you actually did any math for the attack strings or just went with what you use instead of what is actually best.

These are the actual optimal attack strings:

SE>BB>BB>BB (high enmity)
Enmity: 850.88 / GCD ((150 + 190 + 83.33 * 2 + (270 + 83.33) * 1.2 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) * 2 / .9 * 1.2 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) * 1.2) / 12)
Damage: 362.94 / GCD ((150 + 200 + 83.33 * 2 + (280 + 83.33) * 1.2 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 + 280) * 2 * 1.2 / .9 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 + 280) * 1.2) / 12)
no SP debuff

SP>BB>BB (standard)
Enmity: 729.77 / GCD ((83.33 + 150 + 190 + 250 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) * 2) * 1.2 / 9)
Damage: 324.44 / GCD ((83.33 + 150 + 190 + 250 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 + 280) * 2) * 1.2 / 9)
SP debuff

SP>SE>BB (solo tanking standard)
Enmity: 594.66 / GCD (((83.33 * 6 + 150 + 190 + 250 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) / .9 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 190 + 270)) * 1.2 / 9)
Damage: 369.48 / GCD (((83.33 * 6 + 150 + 190 + 250 + 150 + 200 + 280) / .9 + (83.33 * 3 + 150 + 190 + 270)) * 1.2 / 9)
SP debuff

SE>BB (high damage)
Enmity: 724.44 / GCD ((83.33 * 6 + 150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) * 1.2 / .9 / 6)
Damage: 386.66 / GCD ((83.33 * 6 + 150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280) * 1.2 / .9 / 6)
no SP debuff

SP>SE(offtank, minimum enmity)
Enmity: 377.77 / GCD ((83.33 * 6 + 150 + 190 + 250 + 150 + 190 + 270) * 1.2 / .9 / 6)
Damage: 377.77 / GCD ((83.33 * 6 + 150 + 190 + 250 + 150 + 190 + 270) * 1.2 / .9 / 6)
SP debuff

For comparison, BB spam
Enmity: 800.00 / GCD ((83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) / 3)
Damage: 293.33 / GCD ((83.33 * 3 + 150 + 200 + 280) / 3)
no SP debuff

SP>SE>BB is a better attack string than SP>BB>BB if your other tank isn't riding your ass on enmity since it's easily enough to keep aggro off of DPS but it's substantially lower than RoH spam or any other non-OT attack string. If you're running with another WAR that is kind enough to be running the OT rotation, which keeps up the SE debuff constantly, SP>BB>BB is the better one to use since you only use SE in order to provide the ~11% increase in damage to your own BB and SP.

SP>SE is the OT rotation because it deals nearly as much damage as SE>BB (only 9 potency/GCD less), keeps up both debuffs on a permanent basis, and generates low enough enmity that you pose no threat to the MT's enmity generation even if you overgear them.

As for Fracture, this is somewhat arguable but I keep Fracture up when not tanking (provided that the target won't die or become invulnerable for the next 30 seconds) and otherwise don't bother using Fracture when Defiance is up.

Fracture is a 300 potency hit that you can throw out once every 13 GCDs (12 GCDs for the DoT duration w/o breaking combos and 1 GCD for itself). Considering the average potency/GCD from special attacks of most of those attack strings is ~200, assuming you're not messing with Maim/SE debuff uptime, you're getting an extra 100 potency every 13 GCDs, which is 7.69 potency/GCD. Assuming a baseline potency/GCD of ~370 (SP>SE>BB, which is the median), that's a 2.08% increase in DPS (it's actually lower than this because using it would interfere with Maim and SE debuff).

The problem with Fracture, however, is that it is expensive. The WAR combos all consume 63.33 TP/GCD ((70 + 60 + 60) / 3). As such, throwing in Fracture every 13 GCDs equates to a cost of 64.61 TP/GCD ((63.33 * 12 + 80) / 13), which is a 2.02% increase in TP cost.

As such, in any TP constrained scenario (any prolonged fight without regular periods of doing nothing, e.g. Titan HM and EX, coil), Fracture doesn't really do anything and, in fact, will end up reducing your damage by stopping you from reapplying Maim/SE when you're TP starved. If TP isn't a consideration at all, it's a tiny DPS increase that you probably wouldn't notice.

Offensive cooldown management is pretty much based on common sense. They are strongest when used in conjunction with each other. Use them as often as possible, but also make sure that you have them for the key moments in the fight. Unchained and Berserk are good for starting fights, for tank swaps, and snap-aggro on newly spawned adds.

You actually don't want to use Berserk on CD because it ends up contributing less over time than if you only use it once every 120 seconds while you've got Unchained. The reason for this is pretty simple: the 33% damage increase from Unchained balances out the loss of contribution from artificially increasing the CD by 33% (90->120) but it also reduces the loss in damage from the Pacification effect from it by 33% for the same reason.

If you've got IR, you want to use Unchained>Berserk>IR in that order whenever you've got Unchained up and use IR on CD otherwise (it's a 60 sec CD compared to Unchained's 120).

[Instrumentality]

You actually don't want to use Berserk on CD because it ends up contributing less over time than if you only use it once every 120 seconds while you've got Unchained. The reason for this is pretty simple: the 33% damage increase from Unchained balances out the loss of contribution from artificially increasing the CD by 33% (90->120) but it also reduces the loss in damage from the Pacification effect from it by 33% for the same reason.

If you've got IR, you want to use Unchained>Berserk>IR in that order whenever you've got Unchained up and use IR on CD otherwise (it's a 60 sec CD compared to Unchained's 120).

So assuming you have a healer that can clear the Pacification debuff within ~1 second of it hitting your WAR you should use Berserk on cooldown?

[Vanifae]

would you want your DPS to help heal? would you want your healers to help tank? nope and nope. so no thank you, but ill just let my tank do the tanking

Such a pedestrian response, there is nothing wrong with wanting to produce the most damage you can as a tank in fact I highly encourage it. Holding threat is not hard, it's the easiest part of being a tank. The difference between a great tank and a satisfactory one is knowing when to use your cooldowns effectively and eking out he most damage you can while not crippling your role. I find this discussion useful because knowing what combos are high threat and high damage is useful for when you cans witch to damage mode once you have a good lead.

[SkyHighDN]

Will a Summoner be required to do a raise if one of the healers dies in an 8 man raid? I think so.......

So would you want a DPS to heal.... in that circumstance? YES

[Warrlordd]

yeah good point to make. I still feel like you are missing the REAL reason why WAR can do as much DPS as it does. Because all our self heals are off AP. So, without necessarily agreeing with your motives, I think optimizing damage output optimizes defense output as well.