A (bad ?) way of tanking...

[Nicodareus]

Degaulace your missing the point of what I said. I didn't agree or disagree with the tanks that you are running with. The point is that as a DPS yes your job is to kill mobs however it is not to engage the instant a mob is tagged. As a DPS you have the responsibility to allow tank to settle and begin threat rotations. Sometimes it means waiting longer then normal which with unknown pug tanks this should be assumed. With tanks you run with normally you get to know the threshold of when and how much you can do.

As DPS a you have a role to play in effectiveness. Sometimes means holding off the trigger longer then you normally do.

[Yunnie]

I pull a "group" back wards in order to pack them into a tight bundle. If a dps class is dealing damage "during" my pull, then I consider them at fault. If there is a ranged mob in the group, I pull farther back, and then move forward placing the melee mobs on top of the ranged mob.

The tank sets the pace of the fight and the location of the mobs. If you as a dps don't like where your standing, then moving to safety is probably your best course of action. Dps should move to avoid dmg...

If what I just explained does not apply, then maybe the tanks on your data center play differently then the ones on my data center...

More often then not, it is the tank range attacking a mob, and then a dps going full blown before the tank has even finished pulling the mobs to his desired location.

[Konaim]

I pull a "group" back wards in order to pack them into a tight bundle. If a dps class is dealing damage "during" my pull, then I consider them at fault. If there is a ranged mob in the group, I pull farther back, and then move forward placing the melee mobs on top of the ranged mob.

The tank sets the pace of the fight and the location of the mobs. If you as a dps don't like where your standing, then moving to safety is probably your best course of action. Dps should move to avoid dmg...

If what I just explained does not apply, then maybe the tanks on your data center play differently then the ones on my data center...

More often then not, it is the tank range attacking a mob, and then a dps going full blown before the tank has even finished pulling the mobs to his desired location.

I couldn't agree more!

[Diagorn]

In the FR section, some agree that this behavior is stupid, others try to explain it taking examples (poisonous floor in AV, groups too near from others, etc.).
But it's mainly people who defend the über difficult and criticized role of the tank, or who suppose I'm a bad DD...

We have only tried to explain you how a tank works and the real DPS role, however you do not understand.

When someone told you "wait for DPS", you have answered it is not a problem I can DPS directly due to you use dots, but you are wrong.
And like I told you in the french forum, if a tank do a mistake you must be able to adjust your DPS and your position.

[Degaulace]

I agree too.
And in a few situations, like AV's poisoned-floor rooms or in Dzemael (exploding crystals), I stay in movement and wait for the tank to stop moving, indicating that he finished his placement and that the battle can begin. Because running back (or moving further ahead) is needed in order to avoid being poisoned or taken in crystals explosions.
In other situations, where excessive movement for packing and placement is not needed, I admit I don't wait. As soon as the mob's name turns red (indicating that he's being targeted and attacked by the tank), I begin to cast my dots. The way the battle runs then depends on the tank's behavior : if he didn't do useless movement, everything goes well. But if he ran back (or move ahead for no reason), then one of us (me, the other dps or the healer) may take the enmity, which happens frequently in case of a tank needlessly moving around.

Depending on the POV, I may be at fault : I should follow the leadership of the tank, as you say it, Yunnie.
But we could also have it that the tank is doing junk...

If what I just explained does not apply, then maybe the tanks on your data center play differently then the ones on my data center...

I guess I encounter many low lv newbie tanks (or maybe newbie players), as many of them are not synch...it could explain this perfectible way of tanking.
As far as I remember, I didn't see many experimented tanks, so my POV is only based on lv < ~35-40 tanks.

As DPS a you have a role to play in effectiveness. Sometimes means holding off the trigger longer then you normally do.

I must say I totally disagree with that. From my POV, depending on gears and lv, a tank who tanks well will succeed in keeping the enmity on him, even if the dps are bursting like crazy.
However, I indeed restrain myself sometimes, when I see it's needed. It makes me sick, even it's only caused by the tank's poor gear (and not by his gameplay), but I DO do it.
I keep disagreeing though.

When someone told you "wait for DPS", you have answered it is not a problem I can DPS directly due to you use dots, but you are wrong.

First, when someone told me I should wait, he advised me to wait about ten seconds between the tank engaging and MY engaging. Do you realize how far this advice is stupid ? TEN SECONDS !!!! Wtf.
Second, how do you know I'm wrong ? Do you know for sure wether dot skills generates less enmity or more/equal than direct damage skills (it was one of my question) ?

And like I told you in the french forum, if a tank do a mistake you must be able to adjust your DPS and your position.

The fact is : I don't know wether this run back technique is a mistake or not.
To know it is these topics' purpose.
I consider it to be a mistake when it's not needed, but as I said, I don't really know how to play a tank. This opinion of mine is based on observation, and above all on the common sense : why take a walk around the room when mobs are alone/isolated, when there's no danger (poisonous floor, exploding crystals, for example), when the place is large enough for melee dps to be at max efficiency and when the mobs are almost perfectly packed (or when there's no need to move for them to be well-packed) ?
It was the first and fundamental sense of my questionning, and my reasons for creating these topics : to know if there was a real reason (and so adjust my gameplay), or if I would be right telling the tank he souldn't do that...

[Diagorn]

you are pathetic.
The guy who told you ten second has done a mistake ok, but it is necessary to wait before to DPS even if you DPS with the DOT.
The problem is you do some assumption from your observation without knowledge of the classe.
Moreover, the run back tehnique is not bad or good, The tank pull the mob and, if you wait before DPS and you move correctly, you will not have any problem.
In this forum and in the french forum a lot of people try to explain, however each time we try to explain you something, you do not want to understand.

[Kuwagami]

If you as a dps don't like where your standing, then moving to safety is probably your best course of action.

well this sums it up pretty well. dps should not go blindly in the action and burst though all..

I guess I encounter many low lv newbie tanks (or maybe newbie players), as many of them are not synch...it could explain this perfectible way of tanking.
As far as I remember, I didn't see many experimented tanks, so my POV is only based on lv < ~35-40 tanks.

pre-50 dungeons are learning dungeons. maybe that's why you get newbs. Just a guess.. Also, lots of "lv50 tanks" just burned through FATES if it's not their 1st job, so (sorry to say that) they suck horribly at maintaining hate. That's why they do lowbies to train and learn what they skipped previously.

I must say I totally disagree with that. From my POV, depending on gears and lv, a tank who tanks well will succeed in keeping the enmity on him, even if the dps are bursting like crazy.
However, I indeed restrain myself sometimes, when I see it's needed. It makes me sick, even it's only caused by the tank's poor gear (and not by his gameplay), but I DO do it.
I keep disagreeing though.

No. In real world, if dps go crazy, ESPECIALLY summoners, it always end bad. Let's take an example which happened like 20 mins before I write this : WP run, smn/blm compo. No matter how well I did on my packs, I couldn't keep hate on the 3 packs bunch I usually go through until I spammed overpower preemptively. And he was doing nothing but his DoTs. Just releasing hell a bit too soon for my positioning.

First, when someone told me I should wait, he advised me to wait about ten seconds between the tank engaging and MY engaging. Do you realize how far this advice is stupid ? TEN SECONDS !!!! Wtf.
Second, how do you know I'm wrong ? Do you know for sure wether dot skills generates less enmity or more/equal than direct damage skills (it was one of my question) ?

Ten seconds, though excessive, isn't that wrong. 10 seconds is nothing, compared to a wipe if your tank NEEDS that time to maintain a good hate build. at least wait for 2 entire GCD (5 secs) and see how you won't take hate back (and be able to position yourself) in that time.

for 2nd point, I already answered you : taking Bio2 as an example : 35 potency during 30 secs (if numbers aren't accurate, correct if it amuses you)
so you'll get 35 potency hate every 30 seconds without doing anything. of course you're going to put other DoTs above it, and a lot of other stuff like ruin when you have nothing left to do. This can totally overdamage a monster if the tank is spreading the hate build (if not, you'll take hate even faster). so it's less effective on hit but totally bullshitting the threat build if done wrong

[Kabooa]

Reposition. It has to exceed, like, a 45 degree cone to stop your cast. If a little movement or even a lot is interrupting that, you're too close.

[Mailstrum]

say you have a 3 pull of mobs. 2 casters 1 melee. in a Caster Melee Caster formation. If the 2 casters are spread out to far my aoe will not hit them both. So i will pull the pack back and try to "Range" the casters in the pull to group them up closer so that my aoe hits all 3 mobs at once.

[Degaulace]

say you have a 3 pull of mobs. 2 casters 1 melee. in a Caster Melee Caster formation. If the 2 casters are spread out to far my aoe will not hit them both. So i will pull the pack back and try to "Range" the casters in the pull to group them up closer so that my aoe hits all 3 mobs at once.

That's quite logical, but say your two dps are ranged ones. When everyone take care about the melee mob, the casters mobs attack the tank. But as the tank can't attack the casters mobs, the casters mobs may switch target to one of the dps (or the healer). In that case, the caster mobs are forced to come closer from the group, for them to be able to hit your range teammates. Therefore, no need to run back and forth to pack the mobs, as they'll end up packed anyway.
In fact, everything depend on the situation.
Besides, there's not really a bunch of caster mobs in lv <47 dungeons...

pre-50 dungeons are learning dungeons. maybe that's why you get newbs. Just a guess..

That's precisely what I said, even if I wouldn't say these dungeons are "learning" ones : why would they be ? They're neither easy nor difficult, they're just adjusted for low level characters, the same hi lv dungeons are adjusted for hi lv characters.
Every dungeon became easier when your lv is synch, and the HM/EX/endgame dungeons will be very easier once the max lv is increased.
For the rest, it's only a matter of practising and learning of different patterns...

Also, lots of "lv50 tanks" just burned through FATES if it's not their 1st job, so (sorry to say that) they suck horribly at maintaining hate. That's why they do lowbies to train and learn what they skipped previously.

Why "sorry to say that" ? Because you're a tank yourself and you're afraid to hurt your colleagues ?
We ALL know it's true, and not only for tanks, not only for secondary classes. Many players rush to lv 50 in main class without even do a single story quest.
But it's another debate...

No. In real world, if dps go crazy, ESPECIALLY summoners, it always end bad. Let's take an example which happened like 20 mins before I write this : WP run, smn/blm compo. No matter how well I did on my packs, I couldn't keep hate on the 3 packs bunch I usually go through until I spammed overpower preemptively. And he was doing nothing but his DoTs. Just releasing hell a bit too soon for my positioning.

As I said, many tanks don't understand their role is to do everything is needed to keep hate on them. If that means Overpower spam (in your case), so be it : spam it.
As for me, I almost ALWAYS cast my three dots then expand them to the mobs around as soon as possible. And when the tank do his job, I NEVER get the hate, even if he's not lv synch. Absolutely NEVER.
If the only way for the tank to keep the hate is spamming his agro skills like crazy, whatever the reason (too much bursting dps, for instance), then he have to do it. Especially for the WAR, who can easily control a whole bunch with Overpower. Period.

Ten seconds, though excessive, isn't that wrong. 10 seconds is nothing, compared to a wipe if your tank NEEDS that time to maintain a good hate build.

If he needs THAT time, he plays real bad and he needs to learn. As a dps, give in to this playing is stupid, as it will validate the tank's bad gameplay.

so you'll get 35 potency hate every 30 seconds without doing anything. of course you're going to put other DoTs above it, and a lot of other stuff like ruin when you have nothing left to do. This can totally overdamage a monster if the tank is spreading the hate build (if not, you'll take hate even faster). so it's less effective on hit but totally bullshitting the threat build if done wrong

The ONLY issue I ever encountered with placing my three dots (with or without expanding), is me suddenly getting the hate of mobs I just never hit and which are not affected by my expanded dots (in a situation where the tank do his job well, of course).
Damage is not the only parameter in hate. The dps, especially SMN and BLM, are über strong and deal monstruous damages, when compared to what can do a tank.
But a tank possesses damaging skills that generates more hate than other equal-damaging skills.
Even if a dps burst like crazy, the tank should be able to keep hate.
Even if it means spamming skills like Overpower, yes.