Summoner / Scholar, In Math and Practice

[Exolithus]

Thanks for the input Seobit. However, I excluded raging strikes and contagion on purpose.
The goal was to show a baseline of SCH <-> SMN in a skillset.

Basically you compare a SCH WITH his Crossclass Skills with a SMN WITHOUT his Crossclass skills AND his pet to show a baseline of SCH <-> SMN?

If you dont include RS and Garuda you cant include CS, thats stupid, sorry

edit: if you bane extended Dots from garuda you will get even higher dps rates because SMN can ruin / ice II spam even longer and uses less aeatherstacks than the SCH. Aero isnt spread by Bane so you need to cast it on every other mob bevor you can even start aoe'ing

The idea is nice but you miss way to much things about SMN and cant compare them because of that.

Things like Garuda on Obey deals more dmg than Garuda on Sic
Extendend Dots allow you to cast more Ruins without recasting your dots
Extended dots together with bane is way more powerfull than SCH normal dots bane'd
SCH deals way less dmg in big mob groups because of Enkindle and Garudas AoE attack
You ignored the fact that SMN has 2 pet buffs wich increases the pet dmg even more, SCH cant use even 1 of these buffs for DPS
Raging Strike + Extended Dots + Bane = Untouchable for SCH in terms of DPS
SCH is missing a lot in ACC because they focus more on PIE, turn 5 you are a useless DPS because you cant hit anything

You just cant compare them 1on1, you try to dps with a class made for healing...thats like i would use my BLM for healing because i have unlimited Mana.
If you really want to compare them, then use both of them to the full potential and not 90% SCH against 50% SMN and be like "SCH is the better dps because he deals the same dmg as a 50% SMN"

[T0rin]

Basically you compare a SCH WITH his Crossclass Skills with a SMN WITHOUT his Crossclass skills AND his pet to show a baseline of SCH <-> SMN?

If you dont include RS and Garuda you cant include CS, thats stupid, sorry

Whole-heartedly agree. Why would you not include RS, just because it is not 'on all the time', like CS is? It is a cross-class damage buff, it should be included in the baseline, if CS is.

Also, the math included Garuda's Sic rotation, which is awful. Nobody who knows what they are doing uses Sic. Everyone uses Obey, which results in significantly higher DPS, because Garuda is not wasting time casting sub-par DPS abilities that you don't want or need. And relying on 'getting all your buffs off before Garuda hits Contagion in the Sic rotation' is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Not to mention, it completely falls apart by the time Contagion is available the second time around.

[Akirakogami]

I don't buy the idea that the 10% damage buff from cleric stance completely replaces summoner's dedicated DPS abilities and DPS focused pet.

Why bother using summoner if it is even a question that scholar might have more dps?

[T0rin]

I don't buy the idea that the 10% damage buff from cleric stance completely replaces summoner's dedicated DPS abilities and DPS focused pet.

Why bother using summoner if it is even a question that scholar might have more dps?

From a PPS (potency per second) perspective, SCH with CS and Aero _can_ keep up with SMN with RS and Fester, if he spends time casting Ruin as well. Then you throw in the SMN pet, which at near i90 gear levels, will be about 70 DPS. Then you account for the fact that SCH can't actually DPS full time, and even more damage falls away. In reality, a SCH on any content that actually matters, is going to be at least 100 DPS below the SMN, who is a dedicated DPS resource and sacrifices nothing as far as party contribution goes by spending all their uptime DPSing. SCH on the other hand actually has healing/shielding duties to attend to.

Anyone who tries to use CS/Aero to 'prove' that SCH can even hold a candle to SMN in terms of DPS, is really looking for a reason to play SCH, and is doing nothing to further an educated conversation about DPS potential.ng all their uptime DPSing. SCH on the other hand actually has healing/shielding duties to attend to.

[Akirakogami]

SCH on the other hand actually has healing/shielding duties to attend to.

without the healing, they get 2 healers that arn't scholars trying to dps in addition to the dpsing scholar obviously.

[SokoSplat]

@Akirakogami: I included the RS details right below the quote you made and justification for the RS/contagion exclusion. I also included some of the pet details in the first posts link (1k max char posts here tho). and a pet DPS breakdown in the same post you quoted.

The whole point of this isn't to say 'SCH is same as SMN'. It's to show that SMN DPS pre IL90 with +1 is sub par in comparison to the same classes second job doing the same 'role'. If you go further down, ACN can out DPS SMN, still maintains the garuda pet (which is pet everyone uses anyways) in the form of emerald carbuncle (-10 pot each skill) and gets 3 damage boost cross classes buffs (B4B, RS, IR) along with extra utility..
Remove CS 10% from the equation:
Aero is 200 potency, fester is 300 (if all dots are on target). Energy drain (aetherflow) is 150 potency + mana drain. Combining Aero + ED you get a higher potency than fester and you get mana back. All are capped at 1 min (aetherflow grants 3 stacks per minute, 1 stack required to cast).

[SokoSplat]

@T0rin:
That's weird you mention all good SMN use obey rather than a combo of both, everyone (and it's been a lot of people ) I've spoken with says they either use a hybrid of sic/obey or leave it on Sic.
When You factor the other skills excessive delays and recasts, the potency becomes nil in comparison to its base ability and has less than 3.2 potency/sec for both shockwave and aerial slash.
Could you provide what macros or if you just bind hotkeys and do you button once or button mash to fire a skill off for pets? I'd really like to know how you get around button mashing, since it ends up eating a substantial amount of DPS for me in my rotation (waiting on either a pet skill in obey or smashing buttons takes on avg 3 rune IIs per fight).
Any details you could provide in how every other summoner does it would be extremely appreciated.

[Exolithus]

You just use Garudas first attack and the dot extendtions, the aoe is just usefull if you use it on 4 or more mobs because of the long casttime and the knockback...is useless

If you let Garuda on Sic she will constantly cast the aoe on a single target wich is a huge dmg loss
You dont need macros or keybinding for garuda, just one to set her to Obey once and another one to use Contagion and thats it, if you have more than 4 mobs in a spot just click garudas aoe of if you totally must use keybinding just give it one, ignore the knockback

@Akirakogami:
Aero is 200 potency, fester is 300 (if all dots are on target). Energy drain (aetherflow) is 150 potency + mana drain. Combining Aero + ED you get a higher potency than fester and you get mana back. All are capped at 1 min (aetherflow grants 3 stacks per minute, 1 stack required to cast).

Again, you use 1 SMN skill against 2 SCH skills and wants to tell us that SCH deals more dmg...you talk about getting mana back but use mana at the same time

Lets compare
RS+BioII+Bio+Miasma+Fester
against
BioII+Bio+Miasma+Aero+ED

or even better

BioII+Bio+Miasma+Fester+Contagion
against
BioII+Bio+Miasma+Aero+ED

just contagion alone makes SMN deal way more dps than a SCH, stop ignoring important skills of a class

[T0rin]

The whole point of this isn't to say 'SCH is same as SMN'. It's to show that SMN DPS pre IL90 with +1 is sub par in comparison to the same classes second job doing the same 'role'. If you go further down, ACN can out DPS SMN, still maintains the garuda pet (which is pet everyone uses anyways) in the form of emerald carbuncle (-10 pot each skill) and gets 3 damage boost cross classes buffs (B4B, RS, IR) along with extra utility..
Remove CS 10% from the equation:
Aero is 200 potency, fester is 300 (if all dots are on target). Energy drain (aetherflow) is 150 potency + mana drain. Combining Aero + ED you get a higher potency than fester and you get mana back. All are capped at 1 min (aetherflow grants 3 stacks per minute, 1 stack required to cast).

Aero is 150 potency over 18 seconds, Fester is 300 potency every 20 seconds. Every minute, an ACN can dish out 950 potency via ED and Aero, an SMN can dish out 900. That 10 potency difference between pets is 200 potency every minute. Not to mention that unless you get the Allagan book, the primal book is a downgrade compared to +1 as well.

I am honestly curious if ACN could out-dps SMN with all the right cross-class skills, but your math is very flawed all around.

[T0rin]

@T0rin:
That's weird you mention all good SMN use obey rather than a combo of both, everyone (and it's been a lot of people ) I've spoken with says they either use a hybrid of sic/obey or leave it on Sic.
When You factor the other skills excessive delays and recasts, the potency becomes nil in comparison to its base ability and has less than 3.2 potency/sec for both shockwave and aerial slash.
Could you provide what macros or if you just bind hotkeys and do you button once or button mash to fire a skill off for pets? I'd really like to know how you get around button mashing, since it ends up eating a substantial amount of DPS for me in my rotation (waiting on either a pet skill in obey or smashing buttons takes on avg 3 rune IIs per fight).
Any details you could provide in how every other summoner does it would be extremely appreciated.

You must have talked to a lot of bad SMN then, because Sic is simply a flat out DPS loss compared to Obey, and you lose control over the single most important pet ability you have: Contagion.

I don't use macros. I keep Garuda on Obey, and if I need Aerial Slash, I queue it up. If I need contagion, and I need it right now, I put her on Steady right after a Wind Slash, before my Bio goes out, and I get Contagion immediately. There isn't any 'button smashing', you only have to cater to Contagion once every minute, and even then, unless you need to Bane right afterwards, you don't have to even bother with Steady prior to Contagion either, since it doesn't matter otherwise. There are no AoE situations in the game where Aerial Slash cannot wait on a GCD.

Sic is a flat out DPS loss, and you will get into many many many situations where Garuda does really stupid stuff with Contagion, like casting it on something that has 0 DoTs. Sometimes you even want to wait to use Contagion, because RS might be up imminently, and you need to re-DoT with RS/int pot, prior to using the Contagion. Using Aerial Slash and Shockwave when you simply don't need the AoE or knockback, will occur additional DPS losses. Wind Slash is the best DPS Garuda can do, and Obey guarantees she does nothing but Wind Slash. Sic is simply a bad idea, there is never a single situation you would ever want to use it.