How did the community become this toxic?

[Duelle]

WoW's new expansion was just announced. Those players are already on their way OUT of FF14, not coming in.

You mean the expansion that's basically "lol we can't think of interesting new characters and don't want to take the time to conceive and develop a meaningful cast of heroes, so here go back in time to an alternate past and rub elbows with the heroes of old in what should cause several temporal paradoxes but whatever lorelol"? That's like standing in line to get your intelligence insulted. >.>;

The community has always been toxic.

Remember the beta forums?

This.

[Arkune]

Here is one big reason that's killing it for me, FFXI was all about being geared, this game is becoming the same thing, You are after better gear that is your focus and less story line and quest to progress.

Well no lol, gear wasnt all in XI, the Endgame Linkshells helped u to Gear up even Years after the release of ZM and CoP they rushed you trough the Mission Content to get acces to Sky and Sea. Sure there where Linkshells they were asking for Acces to Sky/Sea and different Jobs but not every Linkshell had that high Gear required to join Status out there. You could have Tanked with the Crafted Gear + AF 1 near every Single Boss Encounter (expect some Special ones) it was hard but possible. Gear only made the fights easier for every class. Here some examples:

DD's better Gear means Higher WS damage + Skill Chain Damage
Black Mages better Gear means Higher Magic Damage + Magic Burst
Tanks better Gear means higher Block,Selfheal and faster Ninjutsu casts and more HP which means Higher damage with Spritis Within
etc..

face the fact take a PLD with AF to Titan HM and he will suffer so much damage or probably get oneshottet by the game Mechanics lol

Back to Topic: Vertical Progression and Ilevels plus the fact that the economy died with the housing Prices force People to farm Money from other Players and use the fact that they maybe dont suffer under lag Spikes and can kill them easily and ilevel creates Elitism.

[Raminax]

Rawr

Implying Metzen's desire to rewrite and retcon lore is a new thing.

As for why humans suck/communities will always have some bad apples... (My opinions, at least)

You're rarely, if ever, held accountable for your actions. I'm honestly not sure if the few jerks I've reported ever got banned... and if it was any significant amount of time, either. Heck, just the fact that people need investigation so there aren't unjustified bans flying all over the place means that by the time offenders actually get banned, they'll already have forgotten why they got banned. Human memory is shit in that sense, most sure as hell aren't going to remember what they did two weeks ago that got them punished. Most jerks are also narcissistic to such a degree that standing up against them and calling them out on their behaviour rarely works, either (in my experience).

On the same topic, anonymity, which further problematizes the issue. If you really want to, you can level up everything yourself to not bother relying on others. Together with the Duty Finder, the chance that you end up playing with people on your own World is very slim. Again, there's barely any reputation to maintain because of cross-server technology, because you'll be getting to play all the group content regardless. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a messiah, but if one could at least prove to be reliable and friendly, you'd be sure to make some new friends down the road which you could play with for a few dungeons or raids... which happened to kinda be a requirement back then. Yes, even in WoW, gosh, that cancerous game. *cough*

MMOs have also become far more difficult compared to back then. Yes, one could argue that hardships through requiring days of grinding for a single level and camping the same spawning spot for hours was difficult in a sense, but it's an entirely different climate now. Quick reactions, extensive knowledge of your character and gearing options and so on means that people have different standards now, which may or may not turn ugly depending on the person. It doesn't matter what you play, you being bad will have an effect on the group's performance, which will eventually upset even the most patient people when you're regularly jeopardizing their success. Comparing Molten Core to stuff like The Throne of Thunder, you could have half your raid consist of lazy pillocks who hadn't farmed their Fire Resistance gear, yet succeed. Now a single DPS dying on Heroic Lei Shen more or less means you can wipe. And of course, the chance of encountering a quality player who wants to take the gamble of teaching someone bad in the hope that it sticks... are probably very slim. We've gone from mages simply standing around and spamming their biggest nuke to having to maintain flowcharts of varying degrees of complexity in your mind and avoiding AoEs while pushing out the highest DPS to not get the boss to enrage.

[Kiayin]

You mean the expansion that's basically "lol we can't think of interesting new characters and don't want to take the time to conceive and develop a meaningful cast of heroes, so here go back in time to an alternate past and rub elbows with the heroes of old in what should cause several temporal paradoxes but whatever lorelol"? That's like standing in line to get your intelligence insulted. >.>;
This.

Well not everyone sees it that way. I love stories where there's time travel involved and you get to see an area and people that you wouldn't have gotten to see otherwise. It can be done well.

OP: I want to share an experience I've had this past week. I was stuck on my 10 years old laptop, which means I couldn't play FFXIV or any of the bigger mmorpg titles. So I decided to give a browser indie game I'd heard about a try - and I was amazed. The community was extremely small - but everyone who played was genuinely interested in the game and was having fun. People were helpful, they chatted and did things together - they joked about the things they didn't like and even managed to turn them fun. I felt like I had just travelled back in time to 2004.
You are free to draw your conclusions - here's a bunch of my considerations [Wall of text incoming. Excuse my english.]

A mmorpg -especially a theme park- will always, sooner or later, grow stale - since its content is finite and developing new content takes more time than consuming it. What used to make the difference every time you logged in was the people who played with you and the content you created together. Still, being able to solo is a great thing - since even the most social of players would want some alone time every now and then. Social interaction doesn't have to be a must 100% of the time nor revolve exclusively around combat.

One of the problems is that way too many people were led to believe that you can play a mmorpg like a singular player game nowadays -just with other players around. These players think that it will constantly be updated with official content to keep up with them. Their expectations are unreal and the gamers who do not understand this are never going to be happy with the genre. Once they exhaust a game's current content and the novelty wears off, there is nothing more for them to do. Whilst this is not as apparent in sandboxes - the problem is glaring when you switch to a theme park model.

Self-centeredness has also reached a new high - and just an example - it has become common to see players ask for a game designer or artist etc to be fired because they didn't like the design of a new set. Anonymity not only means people go unpunished - it leads to disconnection, to the point that unconsciously we stop treating other players and game developers as people sometimes. So never mind taking into consideration that there are people with different tastes playing this game with you.

Mmorpg's are a very slow evolving market - it takes years to develop a quality one. With such big investments, companies do not want to take too many risks. Gamers are unforgiving and the competition is fierce. Time has become a commodity - and the player base is getting older, busier and more demanding.

People want games to value their time more -which is great - but somehow, the situation has escalated. We have gone from getting rid of artificial, mindless time-sinks to getting rid of the entire world - turning mmorpg's into hub games. It is good and well for there to be a few of those games around - as there's obviously a market for them - but why push every game to be like that? A mmorpg doesn't need to be WoW to be successful. As long as it's mindful of whom their target player base is - a niche game can do perfectly well. It will turn off some players, sure - but its very distinct style will also draw in unexpected people who are curious and can't find that experience anywhere else. See EVE - a solid *10 years old* game with a solid identity - with a steady, even increasing player base. See FFXI, albeit now in decline.

This turn of events has made players sour. There are people who are genuinely unhappy about the direction that the genre has taken - the streamlining, the lack of originality - and want it to go back to its roots. The original mmorpg players have been given the shaft in favour of a bigger market. Their concerns are legitimate - I feel - but some people are simply unable to help themselves it seems, and feel the need to vent their frustration everywhere in a very unseemly manner.

I've heard so many players claim that they want to "get things done". I find this mentality is very puzzling - as most of them sound extremely unhappy. The objective of playing a game is having fun. If you're enjoying yourself, whether you're being efficient or casual about it - it is time well-spent. If you're not having fun, it is time you're wasting. If you choose to keep playing a game you do not enjoy - the only one to blame is you and venting your anger on the community or the developers is not going to make things better. If you do not like the very core of a game - that game is probably not targeting you as their customer- but people do not seem to realize that or want to accept it even when they do.

[Duelle]

This turn of events has made players sour. There are people who are genuinely unhappy about the direction that the genre has taken - the streamlining, the lack of originality - and want it to go back to its roots. The original mmorpg players have been given the shaft in favour of a bigger market.

Genres move forward as time progresses. That'd be like old RPG fans complaining that open world RPGs like Skyrim and action RPGs like Secret of Mana should not exist and that everything should be turn-based combat.

Or if fighting game fans complained about games like Guilty Gear, Blaz Blue or the newer versions of Soul Calibur and Tekken and instead want everything to be like it was in King of Fighters '97 or Street Fighter II. It'd make no sense and give way to stagnant mentalities, and MMORPGs are no exception to this.

Well not everyone sees it that way. I love stories where there's time travel involved and you get to see an area and people that you wouldn't have gotten to see otherwise. It can be done well.

If you've looked at how WoW's lore turned, they've made feeble attempts to create new characters, and when they do they heavily mess up development in some way or do something stupid like cling to the old guard and sacrifice said new characters (building up Liam Graymane only to kill him off at the end of the Worgen starting area comes to mind). The fact they chose to go back to the Horde's glory days pre first war is a blatant admission that they can't come up with anything actually new (not counting whatever conspiracy theories remain on Horde favoritism). Garrosh was the biggest waste of character development I've ever seen, and don't even get me started on the garbage that they called the Fall of Theramore.

I wasn't kidding when I said the turns in WoW's lore played a huge role in the cancellation of my account. >.>

When you have a game with this design and focus, it's pretty easy for your community to become toxic these days because it's an age of games like DOTA/League of Legends, WoW and tons and tons of failed MMORPGs making people more inclined to not be "serious" about their gameplay and act like it's any other online game where people don't matter, thus the excessive rudeness.

One has nothing to do with the other. Even rose-goggle recipient games like FFXI has more than its fair share of assholes. And I say that as someone who was called names for not leveling Ninja for utsusemi, nevermind the crap thrown my way over the years for being a melee Red Mage proponent. People will be assholes, regardless of the design philosophy of the developers.

[Tupsi]

Genres move forward as time progresses.

Genres move forward no one denies that - MMORGs though? They tend to regress to what works. 1.0 was ambitious and 1.23 was pretty amazing it just needed ironing out, but what does he do? Pretty much toss out anything XIV had going for it simply to stick to the 'standard'. Genres can't move forward if developers want to keep doing the same thing. As much as the XIV community hates to admit this, XIV should have been the XI of this era - XI was built around EQ yet it took its own direction with it and did things MMOs still have yet to do properly - XIV/ARR should have been that, that would be moving forward.

Look at the itemization of this game, XIV 1.2x mimicked FFXI and some other MMOs where items had value, but now, ARR mimics MMOs where items have zero value to it, I mean, I understand gear has 'set slots" in terms of programming, but some MMOs with Gear just..makes you want it. Nothing in ARR makes you "want" it because it'll just be replaced in the next update or right after you finish a quest.

That'd be like old RPG fans complaining that open world RPGs like Skyrim and action RPGs like Secret of Mana should not exist and that everything should be turn-based combat.

Not the same at all - For one thing unmodded Skyrim is pretty bad, but that's another story, another thing, Seiken Densetsu games didn't regress when they tried something new, they took what already existed and did something different. They didn't throw out what made previous Square RPGs good, they retained it and built a new battle system and progression. Some liked it some hated, but compare 1.23 to ARR - They could have kept 1.23 and fixed the issues and then build up from there, instead we get a game on an engine that somehow managed to get more clipping than a 2000 developed PS2 MMORPG.

Or if fighting game fans complained about games like Guilty Gear, Blaz Blue or the newer versions of Soul Calibur and Tekken and instead want everything to be like it was in King of Fighters '97 or Street Fighter II.

Also not the same, especially considering most people actually like and still loved the older styled fighting games (ignoring the obvious fact that Street Fighter II's system was a happy accident) because newer fighting games are just...really nothing new and trying too hard to go back how they used to be. There's nothing wrong with newer fighting games, but let's be honest...when you say: "Marvel vs Capcom", which ones would people say they truly enjoyed even when Nostalgia isn't a part of it?

Speaking of Stagnation, ever notice how almost every new MMORPG whether it's mass produced Korean or Chinese MMORPGs or "brand new innnovative!" MMOs they tend to all flow the same and basically be the same game no matter what? MMO genre stagnated because if developers try to move forward, people will despise it because "It's not WoW" or 'why can't I talk to NPCs and auto level by not going into the overworld?' "where's my endless dungeon grinds and main story content you only do once but never again?"

Pretty much every genre, RPGs included, are moving forward but in order to make money these days, MMORPGs can't move forward because the generation of gamers they target aren't open to 'change' or it would be seen as a failure. This is why FFXIV had so much potential if it was properly developed from the get go. Whether you love or hate ARR, no one can really deny it's nothing..special even with the Final Fantasy name attached, as it's been said before - it's pretty much like taking any other MMO and putting a FF mod into it...hell you'd get the same experience making a FF mod for Skyrim.

[Duelle]

XIV/ARR should have been that, that would be moving forward.

It actually is. It's taken modern concepts and given them its own spin, and will likely build on those and go its own direction given time. It's not a 1:1 copy of WoW or any modern game by any stretch of the imagination, but has taken certain systems and used them well enough. That said, there's obviously room for improvement, but that'll come with time. I hope, anyways.

Look at the itemization of this game, XIV 1.2x mimicked FFXI and some other MMOs where items had value, but now, ARR mimics MMOs where items have zero value to it, I mean, I understand gear has 'set slots" in terms of programming, but some MMOs with Gear just..makes you want it. Nothing in ARR makes you "want" it because it'll just be replaced in the next update or right after you finish a quest.

Itemization had to be simplified for balance purposes. I'm also glad they steered away from crap like throwing job adjustments on gear, which highly reduces the chances of us seeing crap along the lines of on/off switches like Aegis/Ochain for PLDs and Almace for melee RDMs.

Seeing that transmog in WoW made me want and care for gear I didn't care about before, I'm sure I'll care about gear and want gear once vanity slots are implemented.

Not the same at all

It is actually exactly the same. You rejecting modern MMO design is no different than claiming that Skyrim should not exist, because <insert whargarble excuse about how RPGs should not have changed>.

Also not the same, especially considering most people actually like and still loved the older styled fighting games

It is also exactly the same because thsoe who like the older games *wait for it* will simply play the older games. I'm personally not into Guilty Gear because I don't like all the stuff that was added (dusters, roman cancels, fake roman cancels, etc). You don't see me demanding that Guilty Gear follow the convensions set by the older fighting games; I simply don't play GG and gravitate to something I enjoy more (like Melty Blood >.>).

If SE and Yoshida Naoki made the decision to make ARR using conventions and ideas taken from modern MMOs, we can sit back and enjoy the game, give them suggestions/feedback on how to improve the game within the philosophies and approaches they have chosen to implement, and if we don't like it, unsub and move on. Not whine about 1.23.

Speaking of Stagnation, ever notice how almost every new MMORPG whether it's mass produced Korean or Chinese MMORPGs or "brand new innnovative!" MMOs they tend to all flow the same and basically be the same game no matter what? MMO genre stagnated because if developers try to move forward, people will despise it because "It's not WoW" or 'why can't I talk to NPCs and auto level by not going into the overworld?' "where's my endless dungeon grinds and main story content you only do once but never again?"

It's not so simple. The majority of MMORPGs that have come out within the last 5 years all suffered from the same problems: poorly implemented ideas, lack of content, horrible imbalances, poor marketing and doing nothing to help retention rate (hell, SWTOR going the way it did was more because of those reasons over the idiotic "becuz it c0p33d w0w").

That said, like it or not there are features that have become standard in the industry, much like the super meter in fighting games. Among them stuff like group finders. The genre has moved away from rewarding no-life gameplay in favor of steady progression and gating content to further give a feeling of progression. A genre that once was very insular has opened up to the general public and that is something developers have to keep in mind moving forward. That's what I would call the evolution of the MMORPG genre. Others may call it a decline, but as someone who has benefited from the changes to the genre over the last decade, I've had no issues and enjoy ARR for what it is.

[Peptaru]

Mmorpg genre redefinement

The blues turned into rap, rock, r&b...
Classical music turned into thrash and death metal...

When you change a genre too much it turns into something unrecognizable. Rpgs are ceasing to be Rpgs. Change is fine, but a duck is a duck only as long as its a duck; Mmorpgs are the ugly duckling now.

[amnie]

The blues turned into rap, rock, r&b...
Classical music turned into thrash and death metal...

When you change a genre too much it turns into something unrecognizable. Rpgs are ceasing to be Rpgs. Change is fine, but a duck is a duck only as long as its a duck; Mmorpgs are the ugly duckling now.

with the difference that classical music is good and thrash and death metal are also good. (I actually think the other music genres you mentioned are good too, just not stuff I listen to :P)

MMORPGS aren't BAD these days.

if anything, I'd say you could compare this with the FANS of said music genres. the more popular the band, the more likely you are to be surrounded by douchebags that will slap you in the face when you dare to move when you go to a concert.

[Kiayin]

Genres move forward as time progresses. That'd be like old RPG fans complaining that open world RPGs like Skyrim and action RPGs like Secret of Mana should not exist and that everything should be turn-based combat.

Yes, genres move forward - but instead of expanding, the selection of mmorpg has become narrower and narrower in everything but sheer number. I was referring more to the originality and variety of the models we can play. Just because we have Skyrim, it doesn't mean we should completely kill off turn-based games. I perfectly enjoy both types - they offer different things.

If you've looked at how WoW's lore turned, they've made feeble attempts to create new characters, and when they do they heavily mess up development in some way or do something stupid like cling to the old guard and sacrifice said new characters (building up Liam Graymane only to kill him off at the end of the Worgen starting area comes to mind). The fact they chose to go back to the Horde's glory days pre first war is a blatant admission that they can't come up with anything actually new (not counting whatever conspiracy theories remain on Horde favoritism). Garrosh was the biggest waste of character development I've ever seen, and don't even get me started on the garbage that they called the Fall of Theramore.

I wasn't kidding when I said the turns in WoW's lore played a huge role in the cancellation of my account. >.>I wasn't kidding when I said the turns in WoW's lore played a huge role in the cancellation of my account. >.>

I still stand by my own opinion. XD I love stories where you travel back in time - it allows authors to revisit and flesh out characters I've always been curious and care to hear more about. And I'd rather have that than adding new things and lore just for the sake of it being new. I share your dislike for Garrosh though <3.