Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[Kitru]

We're talking about one of the mainstay jobs and one of the starter Final Fantasy jobs, to boot.

Which is why I'd say that they're most definitely going to include it in some way. The question is whether they're going to include it as a job, which is basically going to mean that they're not adding NIN because they're not going to double up on the same fundamental role/archetype, or they include it as a class, which would lead into NIN. We're never going to know until they do it though. It's all conjecture at this point, and it's not like they've really given us much to go on in the interviews (beyond explicitly saying that we're going to get new classes before an expansion comes out and that we should expect it in 2.2 or 2.3).

Options -or lack thereof- may have a hand in it, but it isn't the sole reason behind people wanting to DPS.

It's not the sole reason, not that I was even suggesting that, but it has an impact.

[Starrywisdom]

Still waiting on rogue/thf/assassin/w.e -_-;

[Katchii]

THF should be a job not a base class, imo due to how Thieves essentially (in my brain) get to be Thieves.

Someone who has become a thief has learned over a period of time how to operate as a thief, learning the skills, knowing when to strike, the art of stealth, etc... In regards to this game a level 1 character is an inexperienced noob who knows nothing, so it wouldn't make much sense for a level 1 character to be a thief. They could be a "thug" or whatever (highwayman, cutpurse, Scout, etc...) and at level 30 they get a calling card from the Thieves Guild, which then trains them on the iconic abilities.

Ninja could be the second job that comes from the Thief base class.

One would be DPS and the other could be support. Example: Ninja is essentially a Monk with 1-2 positionally required attack chains but with mid range attack options with shurikens/ thrown weapons and some "ninja magic/ abilities" (ninjutsu/ ninpo) to allow for greater movement in a fight. Thief would cripple the enemy by stealing items/ weapons, planting items that cause debuffs like a poison smoke bomb or something, kidney shots, blind powder, etc... with the positional requirement of "not in the enemy line of sight" (behind or beside) to execute the iconic abilities that thematically require stealth or subtlety. You could reverse the roles and have Ninja have abilities similar to the FFXI ninja with all of the debuff "spells," and have the Thief be a DoT dependant melee job with poison attacks that have positional requirements.

Not to bring it up again, but FFXI did a pretty good job in differentiating between two jobs even though they essentially do the same thing. Example = Dark Knight and Samurai and Warrior. All of them swing big ass two handed weapons to deal damage primarily, but DRK had black magic that augmented their abilities, Warriors just hit harder, and Samurai's were able to use their special moves more often. The same could be done here, where THF and NIN would probably play very similarly to MNK with positional requirements, but it's the small changes that really give the class it's flavor that draws people to it, like a THF with a steal item/ use item ability, NIN with a mid range attack option, stealth being added to either one and having it be a requirement to execute some of their attacks...there are lots of different options to give a similar class enough of a different flavor to attract a different crowd and fulfill a different role.

[silentwindfr]

i have read a lot of nice stuff, but some people seems to miss the main trouble about thief being a jobs... the crystal... the jobs crystal are often used for bring the capacity of lost art.... and exept if i'm stupid...you have a ton of thief in Uld'ah.
people argue about how class must be something generic and that thief is iconic... thief it's iconic because it exist in soo many game.... and why that? because thief are something commons. not ninja, that fall directly into secret and lost art of the armory system.

about the dancer, i see it more coming from the pugilist than thief, mostly because it will be more something made on the body mouvement than being sneaky.

finally, what the thief>Ninja can bring? a debuffing class! actually FF14 ARR suffer of something horrible... the lack of true specialized dps. every dps put debuff and dot and deal damage... indeed, arcanist/summoner/scholar use mostly dot, but we still lack of a class/jobs that will simply cripples the enemy and help the group to kill faster.

[Kitru]

Someone who has become a thief has learned over a period of time how to operate as a thief, learning the skills, knowing when to strike, the art of stealth, etc... In regards to this game a level 1 character is an inexperienced noob who knows nothing, so it wouldn't make much sense for a level 1 character to be a thief. They could be a "thug" or whatever (highwayman, cutpurse, Scout, etc...) and at level 30 they get a calling card from the Thieves Guild, which then trains them on the iconic abilities.

Your do realize that none of jobs have Guilds, right? Guilds are the sole providence of classes, not jobs, not to mention that Guilds exist as a training ground. The only organizations that any of the jobs tie you to are the Swordsworn (as PLD). Job quests are basically your Guildmaster admitting that you have eclipsed their own skills and have nothing left to teach you and, as such, you need to go in search of great legendary powers. The only *organization* that any job actually joins is the Swordsworn, for the PLD, and that's an explicit organization of "we're the best of the best".

Unless you see a Thieves' Guild as some super secret elite organization that encompasses all of Eorzea and only allows the most famous/infamous thieves into its august ranks (which doesn't really make much sense since a successful thief is one that *isn't* famous) as opposed to a group of experienced thieves who decided that they'd rather not run around the streets anymore and instead decided that it would be better for them to grab up street urchins, teach them the basics of thievery (which, seriously, not as hard as you think), and take a cut off of the top for their own purposes.

Also, you've got a pretty glamorous idea of what a thief is, especially compared to every other class out there. People become thieves and train themselves in what to do all the time. People don't tend to become thieves because they elected to join the brotherhood; people become thieves because they *have* to, mainly because the ratio of risk to reward is skewed heavily towards the risk category unless you've got a lot of experience.

Not to bring it up again, but FFXI did a pretty good job in differentiating between two jobs even though they essentially do the same thing.

FFXI is, quite possibly, the worst example you could ever come up with when discussing good game/class design. It's even *more* redundantly stupid given that it ignores how the combat and ability systems in ARR work which is the primary problem that gets brought up when trying to compare the two.

The point is that you *can* differentiate the two, if you're willing to take one or both of them operate in completely different directions than what people actually expect/want out of them, but the simpler and more elegant solution is to just have THF lead into NIN and design them such that NIN is basically THF with kewl ninja magic (they're both stealthy backstabby types that use dirty tricks) tacked onto it, which is what jobs are: the base class with some kewl lore and abilities tacked on top.

[silentwindfr]

In regards to this game a level 1 character is an inexperienced noob who knows nothing, so it wouldn't make much sense for a level 1 character to be a thief.

you realize that the iconic skill for the thief is...steal? more important something that bother me a looooot, Higwayman, cutpurse, thug.... are simply another name for thief.

[Nahara]

FFXI is, quite possibly, the worst example you could ever come up with when discussing good game/class design. It's even *more* redundantly stupid given that it ignores how the combat and ability systems in ARR work which is the primary problem that gets brought up when trying to compare the two.

As I've said before, regardless of what someone's opinion of FFXI is, it still exists as a proof of concept that THF and NIN can be thematically and functionally different from each other; THF doesn't have to be an inferior NIN, and NIN doesn't have to be a superior THF. Obviously, it would be foolish to say that the abilites of those classes from XI should be carried over into XIV, because the combat systems are so vastly different from each other; ergo, the task of differentiating the two would go to the people who actually get paid to do this kind of thing and are probably a lot more creative about it than you or I.

The point is that you *can* differentiate the two, if you're willing to take one or both of them operate in completely different directions than what people actually expect/want out of them

Let's be fair, here. BRD comes out of ARC, which is something I doubt anyone saw coming, and SMN comes from a DoT-focused class (SCH I can't use as an example, since SCH really doesn't have an identity like BRD or SMN). It's very reasonable to have jobs that don't quite function as they've always done, and still have it work.

[silentwindfr]

the trouble is that you are too focus on FF11...
thief are commons in Eorzea... they are far to be a lost art... people can argue for hours... but you have a high probability that thief will be a class more than a jobs... (rogue is the same thing only with a different name)
what you will do as class for thief? scout? ohh great you use dagger and learn to be elusive and.... that all... you need to bring mechanic in a class... and personally i don't see what can bring Thief as jobs... steal? we can't steal item or gils from monster or it will be a huge trouble for them economy. sneak... no sneak nor invisibility for the player. (outside the one gained in the quest for do it) if you look like this...the thief will be a really really poor choice as jobs... don't hope too for treasure hunter passive, since the treasure hunter it's a mini game. as i see it... the thief don't have a lot for him.

finally, this is final fantasy 14, not final fantasy 11-2...

[Havenae]

I say no to del being used as the healing stat.

If arcanist are forced to choose between Scholar or summoner then all other classes who spawn more than one job also better have to make similar Sacrifices.

[Nahara]

...

Scout or Rogue (or Performer, in the case of the idea I had); both are terms I've seen thrown around when it comes to a class for the THF job. The idea is that the class is your general training in your combat style, while your job is more your specialized training (typically given by joining an exclusive organization). You could be a Rogue who does some of the typical thief things, but then get invited into the by-invitation-only group of Thieves, where you get specialized and/or expanded training.

Thematics aside, I did say that it'd be foolish to try and straight-port the abilities and traits from XI and bring it into XIV; the combat systems are just too different from each other to make it work. Making abilities and traits that work and still retaining the feel and flavor of the classic FF job would be a task given to the developers, people who get paid to do these kinds of things and are probably a LOT more creative about it than us.