2.1 PLD snooze fest Flash

[Ezikiel]

LMAO this had me crying i can see the butthurt on OP face now. This just makes it so real LOL please don't complain when a job works the way its supposed to.

[Giantbane]

LMAO this had me crying i can see the butthurt on OP face now. This just makes it so real LOL please don't complain when a job works the way its supposed to.

Lets take an extreme example.


How about you took WHM & SCH, and:

Triple potency on all heals
Reduce threat generated by 90%
Reduce my costs by 75%

Would you say that's awesome that the healers can now keep everyone alive like they're supposed to? Or would you say that maybe it's a little much and this is starting to get a little too easy?

[Leiron]

Lets take an extreme example.


How about you took WHM & SCH, and:

Triple potency on all heals
Reduce threat generated by 90%
Reduce my costs by 75%

Would you say that's awesome that the healers can now keep everyone alive like they're supposed to? Or would you say that maybe it's a little much and this is starting to get a little too easy?

That is a terrible example that isn't at all comparable to the current state of things.

2.0= tanks don't lose threat
2.1= tanks still don't lose threat.

There is no difference.

To take your example of WHM& SCH
It would be these

SCH & WHM: Healing spells have a new graphic.

Your example is one where gameplay is actually changed, but the enmity changes haven't done that in this case.
WAR and PLD still play the same way.
The exception beig WAR which has new tools which DOES change gameplay.

[Giantbane]

That is a terrible example that isn't at all comparable to the current state of things.

2.0= tanks don't lose threat
2.1= tanks still don't lose threat.

There is no difference.

To take your example of WHM& SCH
It would be these

SCH & WHM: Healing spells have a new graphic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extreme?s=t

I would ask you to come back when you get it, but then you'd never be back

errr, wait ... hmmmm ...

[Leiron]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extreme?s=t

I would ask you to come back when you get it, but then you'd never be back

errr, wait ... hmmmm ...

Sorry I forgot you main a WAR and people who play that class tend to be dense.
So I'll make it simpler.

Your example, shows gameplay changes.
The enmity change, doesn't change how WAR/PLD plays.


Seriously, of all the things that can be complained about, you guys are complaining that holding threat is too easy.
What did you have issues holding threat in the past?
If yes? Well good thing SE buffed you.
If no? nothing changed.

Show that WAR/PLD changes in how it plays, or you can do me the favor and raise a BLM so you have the intelligence to understand what I am saying.

[Giantbane]

Sorry I forgot you main a WAR and people who play that class tend to be dense.
So I'll make it simpler.

Your example, shows gameplay changes.
The enmity change, doesn't change how WAR/PLD plays.


Seriously, of all the things that can be complained about, you guys are complaining that holding threat is too easy.
What did you have issues holding threat in the past?
If yes? Well good thing SE buffed you.
If no? nothing changed.

Show that WAR/PLD changes in how it plays, or you can do me the favor and raise a BLM so you have the intelligence to understand what I am saying.

RP-esque class based humor/insults ...

anyhow

More than 1 target? It was more difficult to hold enmity and your party had to work together in order to do so. Everybody target the same thing as the tank for best results (or AoE).
AoE damage to the whole party? WHM needed to be careful not to just spam medica/medica 2.
DPS class wants to stack damage cooldowns and go all out for a quick burst of damage? Either tank needs to match with their own burst damage/threat abilties (FoF, Berserk, Unchained) and/or the DPS needs to manage their enmity.
Speed run where you're fighting many packs as quickly as possible? You must manage threat vs. TP/Mana usage very carefully in order to keep going.
Even basic single target fights, the tank needed to pay some minimal level of attention to their threat. WAR requires a little more attention here since some of the actions they want to perform are low threat moves, so you need to have a clear threat lead in order to do them. 1 BB combo to hold threat at the start of the fight? 2? Do I need to do a single BB before the first combo just to make sure I've got a threat lead?
Future encounters, if the tank ever became stunned/unable to act for a period of time, enmity might be more of a concern.

Now, none of that matters.

You've gone from something you used to have to pay the most basic amount of attention to. Do your combos, check threat on multiple targets, etc. Now you barely have to pay attention at all. Lead off with SP combo? Oops, i'll just hit BB a couple of times (NOT COMBO'D) and it's not a problem. Did a couple BB combos on the boss? Yea, I can probably just switch to SE>SP for a while and drop BB entirely. I'm a spaz and keep running back into Halitosis' (the last boss of Manor HM) dark mist at the last second and get hit with it 4 times during a fight? meh, still not even close to losing threat. Oh, i'm getting lazy and I only hit flash twice before switching to single attacks so I'm about to lose threat on a target? drop the end of a BB combo on him and I don't have to worry about threat till ... well, I don't have to worry about threat on that guy till he dies.

It's gone from something you and your group should reasonably be able to control to something you barely need to pay attention to at all.

As an aside, did you ever figure out why WARs don't lose 33% of their damage when they activate Defiance?

[Leiron]

RP-esque class based humor/insults ...

No lower than dictionary based insults.
Don't be so quick to call someone out on returning the behavior you dish out.

More than 1 target? It was more difficult to hold enmity and your party had to work together in order to do so. Everybody target the same thing as the tank for best results (or AoE).

It was never difficult to hold enmity when you were AOEing things down.
The only time it became difficult was due to a lack of TP/Mana, and that was easily remedied by having a bard being present.
Even without a bard present, you could still hold a group of mobs provided you were given enough time to regen your TP/MP.
The increased enmity doesn't change this fact outside of making you lses reliant on a bard for MP/TP.
So there wasn't a change.

AoE damage to the whole party? WHM needed to be careful not to just spam medica/medica 2.

Sorry but, good WHM never spammed Medica/Medica 2 unnecessarily to begin with, so this isn't a really good argument.

We have to assume good play, in which case, this was never an issue.
If a WHM wants to pull agro, they can still do so currently.

DPS class wants to stack damage cooldowns and go all out for a quick burst of damage? Either tank needs to match with their own burst damage/threat abilties (FoF, Berserk, Unchained) and/or the DPS needs to manage their enmity.

Bad argument.
DPS will use their cooldowns as soon as they come up to maximize DPS.
A Tank will be doing the exact same thing.
There was never a reason to hold back FoF unless you were a WAR who used Berserk.
Even then abilities such as Unchained were rarely used due to the fact they had to rely on IB for mitigation.

So you'd use Berserk off cooldown because not only did it maximize a Tank's damage, it maximized their enmity generation.
So this is gameplay that would happen anyway, and still happens even now.
If you were holding back on a CD, that was because the current target was going to die soon and would be a waste.

Speed run where you're fighting many packs as quickly as possible? You must manage threat vs. TP/Mana usage very carefully in order to keep going.

No you didn't.
If you were in a situation where you are hauling as many packs as possible, you'd gather them all into a spot and immediately wail on them like mad to maintain enmity.
That way,y our DPS can unload more quickly.
Read above.

Resource management was the only issue, and it was seldom a problem provided you started off with full mana/TP.

Even basic single target fights, the tank needed to pay some minimal level of attention to their threat. WAR requires a little more attention here since some of the actions they want to perform are low threat moves, so it needs to be clear to do them. Will 1 BB combo hold threat? 2? Do I need to do a single BB before the first combo just to make sure I've got a threat lead?
Future encounters, if the tank ever became stunned/unable to act for a period of time, enmity might be more of a concern.

Pardon but this is just false.
A Tank never needed to pay attention to their threat simply because of the fact that unless you were OTing, you wanted to hold threat.
This was accomplished through doing ROH combos over and over, or in the case of WAR, you would do
BB>BB>SE.

Two BB's gave you more than enough threat to pop Maim and SE.
There was never any attention needing to be paid.
You're trying to make it appear as if the entire thing was complicated, it never was complicated because Tank's had enough enmity generation that it didn't matter.
Unless you completely screwed up, there was never a reason to lose enmity.
Especially as a WAR which generates some more enmity than a PLD.

Now, none of that matters.

But it never mattered to begin with.
The situations you describe NEVER occurred unless you were making large errors

snip

A lone BB will not generate enough enmity by itself.
You won't have the 5x multiplier.
Furthermore, I am quite sure that the buff towards enmity generation was to make it so that the damage loss DOESN'T offset your enmity generation.

A WAR not in Defiance mode; tank mode; generated LESS enmity than a WAR who was in defiance.
A tank should not be penalized for it.
I have not had the time to test it in depth, but I am quite sure this is the case as my enmity generaton appeared to be equal to the 2nd Paladin in sword Oath.

As an aside, did you ever figure out why WARs don't lose 33% of their damage when they activate Defiance?

1/.75= 1.333333333333


You lose 33% of your damage by activating Defiance.
Its basic math.

I'll make it simpler for you.

You deal 10 damage with Heavy swing.
Turn on defiance.
Its 7.5.

If you weren't losing 33% of your damage, then a multiplier of 25% would fix it.

7.5 x (25%) = 9.375
7.5 x (33%) = 10

A 25% damage debuff is equivalent to a loss of 33% towards total output.
If you're going to make a quip at the end, make sure you're right.