Is Paladin the least fun class to play?

[Duelle]

Ultimately, "fun" is how "engaged" you are.

We'll start off right here. Fun is subjective. Even I recognize that. You're confusing "engaging" with "fun" the same way people confuse "straightforward" with "boring". At the end it is a matter of opinion but let's just say that the mentality you and the OP carry have repeatedly ruined classes I loved throughout the years.

It may be a personality thing. I'm not the adventurous type, and prefer to know exactly what I'm getting into over dealing with unforeseen events; I already get enough of that in real life and certainly don't want more of it when I play a game.

Paladin has 7 gcd abilities. 7. Fast, savage, rage. Flash, swipe, lob, riot. 4 of them are extremely situational and contribute nothing / nearly nothing to the classes primary goal (earning agro on a single target).

Riot Blade's combo in a vacuum may be situational, but it does contribute to the upkeep of your MP bar, which affects your ability to generate and hold aggro, specially in AoE situations. Flash is also inserted into your rotation to help upkeep of TP by allowing it to regen for the equivalent of one combat turn. Everything is relative, which is why I say PLD's design and gameplay is very solid.

Paladin isn't just a case of keep it simple, its a case of "a macro keyboard can play as well as I can."

And now your post is starting to reek of the logic that ruined ret paladins in WoW. I'm sure next you're gonna try to feed me the "you can't tell the good ones from the bad ones" line.

Only when a class is dynamic is there opportunity for excellence. With drg, anyone can hap hazardly fire off combos and be passable. When someone really engages and manages their interactions masterfully, however, they stand head and shoulders above the rest.

Damn, I hate being right.

Pardon the chip on my shoulder, but as I said, I've seen this exact same argument in the past, and the results are never good, nor fun, nor entertaining.

[Alywell]

You don't seem the understand why you are wrong here Duelle.

If you read what PiedPiper said, the class could remain "simple" and "straight-forward" as you like, and you would be just as effective as you are now. Nobody will prevent you from sitting in Shield Oath, spam 1 2 and 3, and be happy with it, granted that you can clear all the content that way.

Then us, people who prefer more "complex" and "dynamic" gameplay, would have fun making different choices that in the end will make us stand out among other Paladins.


Now, please answer this question. If there was a healing class that had ONE single skill called "One Trick Wonder", and what it would do is heal the lowest HP party member in your party or pop an AoE heal in the most efficient way. The class is on par with Scholar and White Mage. There are some people who -love- to play that class. Does it have its place to stay in the game?

EDIT: This is a reference to WoW's vanilla healbot, btw. It was an addon every healer had and eventually it got banned. I hope I don't have to explain why.

[Sunah]

It just sounds like Duelle just doesn't want to accept change. All people want is to use the "Holy" side of a paladin more in terms of game play, lore, and just plain fun it makes the most sense....

People are not asking for buffs, paladins as they are now are just fine if not the best (opinion) in terms of tanking.

[Marxam]

I get the feeling you've never solo tanked the primal fights. Stunning and tanking really keeps you on your toes especially if you help in silencing ads. But yea PLD is slightly less rotation intensive but to be fair PLD is geared as more of a "Boss" tanker and WAR is a "Mob" tanker and we all know how hard it gets holding hate with 4+ mobs and your dps going balls to the wall with aoe.

[PiedPiper]

K, lets play this game of individual points argued against, only I'll try to use a little more context.

We'll start off right here. Fun is subjective. Even I recognize that. You're confusing "engaging" with "fun" the same way people confuse "straightforward" with "boring". At the end it is a matter of opinion but let's just say that the mentality you and the OP carry have repeatedly ruined classes I loved throughout the years.

"Some scientists have identified areas of the brain associated with the perception of novelty, which are stimulated when faced with "unusual or surprising circumstances". Information is initially received in the hippocampus, the site of long-term memory, where the brain attempts to match the new information with recognizable patterns stored in long-term memory. When it is unable to do this, the brain releases dopamine, a chemical which stimulates the amygdala, the site of emotion, and creates a pleasurable feeling that is associated with the new memory.[15] In other words, fun is created by stimulating the brain with novelty." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fun I agree its subjective. But, if you are having fun, you are engaged in the experience. No one has fun and at the same time is disinterested / not engaged. That was all I said. When you are having fun is when you are engaged with what you are doing. My contention was simply that for most people, current paladin is so simple it is rarely engaging on its own (see my point about how the mechanics of tanking itself such as marking and positioning often add to the depth and help engagement.)

It may be a personality thing. I'm not the adventurous type, and prefer to know exactly what I'm getting into over dealing with unforeseen events; I already get enough of that in real life and certainly don't want more of it when I play a game.

Cool. I'm not asking for pld to be unpredictable in any way. No proposed change was based on a proc. We are simply requesting an expanded tool set. I enjoy tackling problems and finding the right tool at the right time. That's what keeps me engaged. Our two desires are not incompatible.

Riot Blade's combo in a vacuum may be situational, but it does contribute to the upkeep of your MP bar, which affects your ability to generate and hold aggro, specially in AoE situations.

This is a counter argument to a claim I did not make. I sated that Riot blade does not contribute to the primary mission of the class, which I defined as holding agro on a single target (similarly I said dragoon's primary mission was to dps a single target). Current paladin does not ever, in any encounter, consume mana to hold or build agro on a single target. Yes riot blade is how you hold extended aoe threat, but... that's even worse. Aoe threat for paladin consists of exactly 4 buttons. Spam flash until empty, RB combo -> flash. Keep cos on cd. It is even more simplistic than single target. Note: I will discuss why flash does not contribute to single target threat shortly.

Flash is also inserted into your rotation to help upkeep of TP by allowing it to regen for the equivalent of one combat turn. Everything is relative, which is why I say PLD's design and gameplay is very solid.

Actually, that's what shield swipe is for. Using flash in place of swipe earns less enmity per second for that time as well as lowering your contribution to damage done. Shield swipe's interaction with bulwark as our TP regeneration is, currently, the "deepest" part of rotation game play on pld. Except.. its actually pretty worthless. The only time you will ever run out of tp on any encounter in the game is if your group's dps is low. And then... well they have low dps so they wont catch up on your threat anyway rendering the fact you are out of TP kinda meaningless. All fights against high HP mobs have movments and delays built in during which you will regain TP if your dps is balanced for the fight (ifrit / garu / titan jumps, Turn 2 travel, turn 4 phase changes, turn 5 necklace placement movements & dive bombs -- even demon wall. Perhaps the only exceptions being end of AK and Turn 1, but... those should die before you run out of tp anyways).

This is exactly why so many complain about PLD as being too simplistic. It doesn't have any resource to manage. Our mana is worthless on all major content except turn 4, and even there it naturally regens to the point you don't need to micro manage it. TP depletes so slowly that once your group is decently geared, you'll push phases long before you run out and thus never run out.

And now your post is starting to reek of the logic that ruined ret paladins in WoW. I'm sure next you're gonna try to feed me the "you can't tell the good ones from the bad ones" line.
Damn, I hate being right.

Skipping the condescending flavor of your words, what I actually said directly contradicts your claim. :

Only when a class is dynamic is there opportunity for excellence. With drg, anyone can hap hazardly fire off combos and be passable. When someone really engages and manages their interactions masterfully, however, they stand head and shoulders above the rest. The same is true of brd and smn. Paladins, however, are only either competent or awful. There are no excellent paladins. There simply isn't enough to the class. There are no decisions to make, no room for finesse.

I explicitly say you can tell the good from the bad. My claim is twofold A) Paladin is so simple, its hard to be bad so very few bads exist. (Plenty of bads at tanking mechanics such as marking and positioning exist, but actually bad at the mechanics of pld itself? Pretty rare.) B) You can't tell the good from the great. There is so little room for true excellence on pld, such marginal gains, that there is no room to shine as a being recognizably better than average.

Damn, I hate that you didn't read what I wrote and were wrong.

Pardon the chip on my shoulder, but as I said, I've seen this exact same argument in the past, and the results are never good, nor fun, nor entertaining.

Well, since I demonstrably showed that you A) did not actually comprehend my arguments (can't tell good from greats) and B) aren't in a state of complete mastery over the details of the class (specifically shield swipe vs flash on single target, or the fact that tp is a non-issue), I'm not so sure about this final statement of yours.

Again, we are not asking to make the class artificially complicated. Its current threat earning tools are just fine. We just want depth, other options. Just 2-3 more buttons that let us make a decision and actually use our resources (specifically mana in single target scenarios).

You like the current class and don't want to do anything more with it? Cool. I am not asking for anything to change about how it builds and holds hate. All we want are skills that currently do little - nothing (or actively hurt you such as awareness) to be replaced with options for resource consumption and management.

If you read what PiedPiper said, the class could remain "simple" and "straight-forward" as you like, and you would be just as effective as you are now. Nobody will prevent you from sitting in Shield Oath, spam 1 2 and 3, and be happy with it, granted that you can clear all the content that way.

^ This guy knows. Current war has a dps combo and resistance debuff to play with as their option. We just want an option consisting of 2-4 buttons that uses our flavor (holy magic instead of warriors damage). Not to mention war gets rage to play with. A whole extra resource to manage and use interestingly.

Take out awareness and give us back divine veil, replace tempered will with aegis boon (make it negate knockback), and give us a trait in place of enhanced awarnees that makes cure act like holly succor with meaningful potency and BOOM. We are satisfied and your game play is unchanged if you so wish it.

[garytay]

Personally i think it's the most fun class to play.

1) Your running the show in most 4-man dungeons, set the pace and mob pulls, put/release pressure on the group depending on your liking.
2) 100% instant dungeon queues - no complaints
3) Face the boss from the front instead of rear-ending the boss.
4) Laugh when someone else die from attack that takes 30% of your HP.
5) Be told you did a good job when u just tank/spank while looking at others run around with more keys then you.

[garytay]

Jokes aside...
There's many things that a PLD can do in boss fights increases the value to the group.
You can master individual bosses with custom rotations and positions, sometimes enough to make the healer /kowtow your leetness.

Examples AK 1st boss - Bash/Silence rotation on thunder III ensure you stay at near 100% with just a regen and minor heals.
Coil Turn 2 - Silence rotation while sharing tanking roles with another tank (Highly stressful job).
Titan - 3rd Phase, Flashing exactly 3sec after land slide + casting stoneskin just before the 2nd punch hit, resulting the stoneskin up for mountain buster and taking less then 20% dmg or miss due to flash - your WHM will think you are a god.

If you sitting on just 1-2-3 combo spamming with most of your skills untouch then it's boring and your not doing your job well. Good PLDs always find something to put themselves at a advantage to the bosses, that's the fun part.

[Baci]

Examples AK 1st boss - Bash/Silence rotation on thunder III ensure you stay at near 100% with just a regen and minor heals.

Or just move behind the Boss while he casts it.

[Alywell]

Jokes aside...
There's many things that a PLD can do in boss fights increases the value to the group.
You can master individual bosses with custom rotations and positions, sometimes enough to make the healer /kowtow your leetness.

Examples AK 1st boss - Bash/Silence rotation on thunder III ensure you stay at near 100% with just a regen and minor heals.
Coil Turn 2 - Silence rotation while sharing tanking roles with another tank (Highly stressful job).
Titan - 3rd Phase, Flashing exactly 3sec after land slide + casting stoneskin just before the 2nd punch hit, resulting the stoneskin up for mountain buster and taking less then 20% dmg or miss due to flash - your WHM will think you are a god.

If you sitting on just 1-2-3 combo spamming with most of your skills untouch then it's boring and your not doing your job well. Good PLDs always find something to put themselves at a advantage to the bosses, that's the fun part.

I'll start by saying you're character is very cute. And then...


1 - Baci took care of it.

2 - If that is a highly stressful job, then I completely believe you when you say you are having fun as a Paladin. I wonder if I should be jealous, or...

3 - The WHM won't think I'm a god, he'll just slap me as he is casting his own superior stoneskin on me. And if blind is up during Mountain Buster, it doesn't make me a god, it makes me not godawful.

And about this: "There's many things that a PLD can do in boss fights increases the value to the group." No, there is not many things. There is barely a few gimmicks that changes sweet **** all to anything whatsoever.


Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see everyone's opinions as this was the point of this thread. Everyone can think differently, but I had no clue there was so many people happy with the current state of Paladins. Although, I can't help but notice many of the people's arguments on why Paladins are fun is either:

a) Tanking mechanics in general
b) Little gimmicks that brings only very little to the group's as a whole and are supposedly "hard" to master. A paladin using their cooldowns poorly vs a paladin that uses them correctly makes a big difference. Using Circle of Scorn on cooldown without fault vs a paladin forgetting about it occasionally won't make any noticeable difference.


Also, I have seen no valid arguments as of why Paladin cannot have more choices than what they currently got other than maybe them getting stronger, but it was already said why this wouldn't even matter the slightest (also noting WAR is getting a very nice update for them as well).

[Maelwys]

Although, I can't help but notice many of the people's arguments on why Paladins are fun is either:

a) Tanking mechanics in general
b) Little gimmicks that brings only very little to the group's as a whole and are supposedly "hard" to master. A paladin using their cooldowns poorly vs a paladin that uses them correctly makes a big difference. Using Circle of Scorn on cooldown without fault vs a paladin forgetting about it occasionally won't make any noticeable difference.

My Milage Varies on "b".
A Paladin has a much easier time "carrying" an imperfect group.

PLD enmity combo is faceroll easy. And their mitigation cooldowns are very straightforward (you only really need to think about the type of enemy you're fighting when using Bulwark, the rest are always equally effective), at least whenever you don't factor in proper use of cover. Even rotating them correctly for maximum effectiveness over time doesn't take too much practice.

That's not a complaint I have, it's something that actually attracts me to playing the class... because I actually like the fact that such straightforwardness frees me up to do other things. GCD Stun/Stoneskin/Silence/Blind in exactly the right places can be exceedingly damn useful. And on content where they aren't needed/effective, you have plenty of time to divert most of your attention to other matters. Such as precise positioning/dodging, or doing other stuff like calling out enemy abilities or discussing tactics on Teamspeak whilst only half paying attention to keeping your rotations up. You don't need to give the game 110% of your concentration... which is nice whenever you come home from a long day at work and just want to flop in front of a game to "have fun"...

(Oh. And using CoS on cooldown breaks sleeps and the cold, black hearts of the Mages who cast them...)