Anyone see this yet? 2 WAR Coil T5

[Maqaqa]

The only thing that matters is the difference in facility between an optimized group and a sub-optimal one when running it.

Yes but it only matters to party members. If they are willing to take a "non optimal" setup, i dont see the problem and the need to criticize their method on the forum. And why so vehemently?
And again, to be fair, WAR/PLD is normal mode, its PLD/PLD that is easier than it should be.

[TaneshimaPopura]

@Maqaqa

I ask you this.. As a tank is it harder on you to play compared to a Paladin. I'm talking if both are given gear they are capable of clearing with. Warrior barely needs to plan their CDs, whereas Paladin has to. Warrior has to rotate his combo and keep Wrath at 5? Is it a monumental task comparing to say deciding on the fly should you Stoneskin or use a CD on the next Death Sentence? How different is Warrior tanking currently from Paladin?

Both have Foresight both have Bloodbath. One has to plan 2.5 more CDs (Minus Featherfoot). Whereas the Warrior is just rotation, rotation, OH Shit press Inner Beast > Infuriate. Come 2.1 those decisions are given to A Warrior hence by that time you want to claim Warrior tanking a a little "more" complex by all means. But as of current implementation it is no where near Rocket Science, not even close to multiplication table difficulty to play it.

If you want to drive manual with 1 feet and arm by all means but the 7 other passenger on your SUV has to pay for your "pride" or whatever. If that sits well in your book and when things go sour you can suck the ragestorm by all means. But trust me when you hit a brick wall in progression, you will see all sorts of the "human" nature when it comes to gaming. I for one want to skip that tedium.

[Maqaqa]

I dunno mate, i dont like SUVs, too big for european towns.
Im sorry but i dont get your point :P videogames =/= cars.
With all this minmaxing (and im a minmaxer too, mind you) we are forgetting we are here to play.
If the party is not optimal is part of the fun to make it still work.

We often go to the coil with only one BRD, and with two meleers... we almost never have two of the same job, so what?
Our members are playing melee characters and we arent going to change them because thats not "optimal".
That would be - indeed - wrong.

[AppleGrocer]

Not really on topic, but I think it's hilarious that my metaphors and similes have gone by without any mention whatsoever, but Tanes' gets called out when it's probably more to the heart of the matter.

I play a Warrior, I make my group run Coil with me. I understand what you mean. But you have to understand, that "people will play what they want to play, and that's okay with me" attitude goes both ways. "Easy mode" is a loaded term, it implies a kind of skating by that isn't applicable in this case. Paladins are the benchmark for tank-centered difficulty, not warriors. PLD/PLD isn't easier, PLD/WAR is harder.

I understand what you're saying and I sympathize to a degree. But the way you're articulating it makes you sound like those folks who claim that putting a pack of mobs to sleep in a WP speed run/running past the mobs in Turn 3/fate grinding is an exploit that somehow makes you a worse gamer than them.

I know that's probably not how you mean it, or maybe you only mean that a little and that can't really be helped. But that's kind of what's behind the whole "stop saying Paladins are easy mode" mentality.

[C-croft]

@Maqaqa

I ask you this.. As a tank is it harder on you to play compared to a Paladin. I'm talking if both are given gear they are capable of clearing with. Warrior barely needs to plan their CDs, whereas Paladin has to. Warrior has to rotate his combo and keep Wrath at 5? Is it a monumental task comparing to say deciding on the fly should you Stoneskin or use a CD on the next Death Sentence? How different is Warrior tanking currently from Paladin?

Both have Foresight both have Bloodbath. One has to plan 2.5 more CDs (Minus Featherfoot). Whereas the Warrior is just rotation, rotation, OH Shit press Inner Beast > Infuriate. Come 2.1 those decisions are given to A Warrior hence by that time you want to claim Warrior tanking a a little "more" complex by all means. But as of current implementation it is no where near Rocket Science, not even close to multiplication table difficulty to play it.

If you want to drive manual with 1 feet and arm by all means but the 7 other passenger on your SUV has to pay for your "pride" or whatever. If that sits well in your book and when things go sour you can suck the ragestorm by all means. But trust me when you hit a brick wall in progression, you will see all sorts of the "human" nature when it comes to gaming. I for one want to skip that tedium.

If twintania was beat with two WARs, I fail to see which brick wall they hit. Also foresight and bloodbath are garbage. Still used because you have nothing else, but garbage nonetheless.

[Maqaqa]

PLD/PLD isn't easier, PLD/WAR is harder.

Im sorry but if you want to be semantic, lets do it; this is what Yoshida said:

Is there anything specific about Paladin which you got wrong?
Yoshida: I think the combination of moves along with Hallowed Ground can be used to the point where it is too strong.
In other words, people used paladins because that block was more easily fit into the socket.
Yoshida: Yes, and by adopting a two paladin configuration, it makes it even easier to complete the content.

As for everything else, my english is crap, but if you dont read behind my words its easy to understand what i mean.

Did you play FFXI? Do you remember the fight that gave you Suppanomimi (i dont remember the name)?
Do you remember how hard it was to get a party that wasnt filled with BLMs and required you to either pay or be a BLM yourself?
This is what happens by giving too much importance to the optimal setup.

[C-croft]

But saying it like that is silly. It's like saying "I write hard mode reports because I use an ink well and a quill, I don't use that easy mode pen stuff"

Yeah, it's technically true, but pointing it out is silly. Just because you choose to shove the square shaped peg into the round hole doesn't mean that you're playing on 'hard mode'

Actually, it's not even that. You're making the 7 other guys you run with shove your square shaped self into round shaped content.

What needs to be kept in mind is that the difficulty of the content doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the difference in facility between an optimized group and a sub-optimal one when running it.

Can we call it challenge mode then? When you can't tune difficulty yourself, doing something with a sub-op setting is considered hard mode or a challenge mode. Either way, I am curious as to why people are getting so upset that a dual WAR group took down TT and look down on a sub-optimal group for completing it. At the end of the day a sub-op group won when plenty of optimal groups can't. Why can't people accept that?

[AppleGrocer]

Im sorry but if you want to be semantic, lets do it... etc.

Sorry if I cam off as snide and wanting to play semantics, that's really not what I meant.

What I was trying, and apparently failing, to say is that if what you are interpreting Yoshi as saying were correct, then Paladins would be getting nerfed.

I'm not trying to be cute, I was simply trying to tell you that your benchmark was off for how strong Paladins are or how weak Warriors are. It doesn't matter that Paladins are too strong *for the content*, or even that Warriors are to weak *for the content*. All that matters is that Paladins are strong and Warriors are weak.

If twintania was beat with two WARs, I fail to see which brick wall they hit. Also foresight and bloodbath are garbage. Still used because you have nothing else, but garbage nonetheless.

It's not a matter of *can* it happen, no one has ever said that Warriors flat out can't run content Paladins can. It's a matter of why bother unless you want to artificially increase the difficulty of the encounter.

A group trying to *get through* coil will have a harder time bringing PLD/WAR in comparison to PLD/PLD, they just will. This doesn't mean that Warriors shouldn't run coil, it's just that we need to realize we are putting unnecessary strain on the group.

It's like having a monk solo silence Turn 2. Can you do it? Sure. But unless you really want to bring that monk along or can't find any bards, there's not really a *good* reason to.

Either way, I am curious as to why people are getting so upset that a dual WAR group took down TT and look down on a sub-optimal group for completing it. At the end of the day a sub-op group won when plenty of optimal groups can't. Why can't people accept that?

You've got me all wrong man, I'm not upset that a sub-optimal group cleared something. I'm all for that. I would be even happier if those Warriors didn't obviously over gear the content.

What I'm griping on are the folks with the "Warriors are fine, l2p" and "Paladins are just easy mode" mentality that I thought died out a while ago. When a WAR/WAR group clears something like Turn 5, yes it's commendable and all, but let's not pretend that the Warriors were the one's that pulled the group through or that it wouldn't have been better (from a normal progression/not challenge mode standpoint) to bring PLD/PLD. If anything, this video needs to be posted on the healer forums. Something like this is a healer challenge mode, not a tank one.

[Maqaqa]

I play a Warrior, I make my group run Coil with me.

A group trying to *get through* coil will have a harder time bringing PLD/WAR in comparison to PLD/PLD, they just will. This doesn't mean that Warriors shouldn't run coil, it's just that we need to realize we are putting unnecessary strain on the group.

Why does your party accept a WAR in the coil?
I dont know but if i have to take a guess, they are happy you are playing the job you like and willing to take the strain.
They arent starving irl because you are a war, they are just playing the game a bit harder.
Some like it, some other not. /shrug

[C-croft]

If you want to drive manual with 1 feet and arm by all means but the 7 other passenger on your SUV has to pay for your "pride" or whatever. If that sits well in your book and when things go sour you can suck the ragestorm by all means. But trust me when you hit a brick wall in progression, you will see all sorts of the "human" nature when it comes to gaming. I for one want to skip that tedium.

It's not a matter of *can* it happen, no one has ever said that Warriors flat out can't run content Paladins can. It's a matter of why bother unless you want to artificially increase the difficulty of the encounter.

A group trying to *get through* coil will have a harder time bringing PLD/WAR in comparison to PLD/PLD, they just will. This doesn't mean that Warriors shouldn't run coil, it's just that we need to realize we are putting unnecessary strain on the group.

It's like having a monk solo silence Turn 2. Can you do it? Sure. But unless you really want to bring that monk along or can't find any bards, there's not really a *good* reason to.

7 other people willingly got into the SUV despite you only having one arm and a leg. They beat TT, didn't hit this brick wall. Some people wish to skip this tedium aka taking the easiest route possible to a win. When you beat TT using twin WAR, or take a MNK for solo silence, how is that not challenging? How is taking a path that leads to more hardship and breaking through it, not an accomplishment? Why can't people just say, "Wow, congratulations!"? Why does everyone have to nitpick every little thing and criticize? They end result was a win. Whether it's a hard mode setting or artificially increasing difficulty, why can't it be called hard mode or challenging mode? If you want world first or server first, I understand taking the easiest route, but that time has come and gone. And when world first happened, people did the same exact thing. Nitpick and criticize. Someone even went so far to say, if you are clicking on skills, you are doing it wrong. As if clicking invalidated the win.

Perhaps these 6 people went in knowing it was going to be a challenge, and when they won, they were excited and happy. Perhaps they had fun doing it. That in itself would be more than just a good reason.