melee dps buffs + bard nerf = cumulative effect too much?

[Ryel]

I believe the problem is most people only look at BRD's numbers on paper and tend to forget the overall battle effectiveness and utility that comes with the job.

The fact that you're a ranged DPS job by nature already places you in a different category than melee DPS (BLM / SMN / BRD)

You don't have to worry about any melee range attacks or AoE's that they do by default, you have no positional based combo system to get the most effect out of your actions.

Add on to this fact that you are not only ranged but are the only one in that category that has no movement penalty for doing damage (BRD)

Both BLM and SMN have casting times that will cancel when they move, they are unable to DD and dodge at the same time.

On top of this you have immense party presence and utility (Songs)

You can affect the parties TP, MP regen, and the resistance of mobs at will in addition to performing your other roles (yes it comes with a debuff to your damage as a cost however), This isnt even counting offesive merit like DoTs, RoD, and the ability to set Mantra

This is quite a lot packed into one job when you compare the capabilities of other DPS job's in comparison, it isn't that BRD was magically doing too much damage it's that based on the amount of things a BRD can do and the risk / reward was not balanced correctly versus the other jobs.

And they aren't so much touching your damage output per se, just your cross class abilities which in fact we still don't have the full details for.

If only there was less jealous ppl like u around, bard wouldn t get nerfed, melee would still be boosted, everyone would be happy.
If you really think bard have so many advantages, why don t u play one?
And don t come and say bard is no real job, i also have a monk, and playing monk is way easier than playing a bard (unless u have to interrupt, then it becomes annoying, to many waiting down time). As a Lancer, monk.... melee all u have to do is mostly keep ur dot on spam 4 buttons, go from flank to back to maximize ur dps output. SMN and BLM are ranged, got nothing to worry about but to dps.... But when u are a bard! u got to take care of ppl MP, TP, keep foe requiem up when big dmg is needed, all that managing ur own mp and taking care of silencing if needed. You still need to dodge or to play with DG mechanics (let s take coil turn 2... melee job are out of the rot order... they only spank and run out of repelling canons).
When i play Bard I like my job, if i play on my monk, I like it too... but why the frack ppl on this forum won't stop complaining about stuff just out of pure jealousy?

As i was accused of jealousy in this post and have passed my post limit i would like to point something out:

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1307848/

I've played BRD since 1.0, I also have Relic for it.

[Charas]

I believe the problem is most people only look at BRD's numbers on paper and tend to forget the overall battle effectiveness and utility that comes with the job.

The fact that you're a ranged DPS job by nature already places you in a different category than melee DPS (BLM / SMN / BRD)

You don't have to worry about any melee range attacks or AoE's that they do by default, you have no positional based combo system to get the most effect out of your actions.
Add on to this fact that you are not only ranged but are the only one in that category that has no movement penalty for doing damage (BRD)

Both BLM and SMN have casting times that will cancel when they move, they are unable to DD and dodge at the same time.

On top of this you have immense party presence and utility (Songs)

You can affect the parties TP, MP regen, and the resistance of mobs at will in addition to performing your other roles (yes it comes with a debuff to your damage as a cost however), This isnt even counting offesive merit like DoTs, RoD, and the ability to set Mantra

This is quite a lot packed into one job when you compare the capabilities of other DPS job's in comparison, it isn't that BRD was magically doing too much damage it's that based on the amount of things a BRD can do and the risk / reward was not balanced correctly versus the other jobs.

And they aren't touching so much touching your damage output per se, just your cross class abilities which in fact we still don't have the full details for.

If only there was less jealous ppl like u around, bard wouldn t get nerfed, melee would still be boosted, everyone would be happy.
If you really think bard have so many advantages, why don t u play one?
And don t come and say bard is no real job, i also have a monk, and playing monk is way easier than playing a bard (unless u have to interrupt, then it becomes annoying, to many waiting down time). As a Lancer, monk.... melee all u have to do is mostly keep ur dot on spam 4 buttons, go from flank to back to maximize ur dps output. SMN and BLM are ranged, got nothing to worry about but to dps.... But when u are a bard! u got to take care of ppl MP, TP, keep foe requiem up when big dmg is needed, all that managing ur own mp and taking care of silencing if needed. You still need to dodge or to play with DG mechanics (let s take coil turn 2... melee job are out of the rot order... they only spank and run out of repelling canons).
When i play Bard I like my job, if i play on my monk, I like it too... but why the frack ppl on this forum won't stop complaining about stuff just out of pure jealousy?

[MirariMirai]

If only there was less jealous ppl like u around, bard wouldn t get nerfed, melee would still be boosted, everyone would be happy.
If you really think bard have so many advantages, why don t u play one?

When i play Bard I like my job, if i play on my monk, I like it too... but why the frack ppl on this forum won't stop complaining about stuff just out of pure jealousy?

so true lolx.... oh well happens almost every mmo.... devs eventually succumb to their whinings .... how modern mmo works nowadays..... explains the quality of players these days too

[Songkla]

You still need to dodge or to play with DG mechanics (let s take coil turn 2... melee job are out of the rot order... they only spank and run out of repelling canons).
When i play Bard I like my job, if i play on my monk, I like it too... but why the frack ppl on this forum won't stop complaining about stuff just out of pure jealousy?

Since you mentioned the DG mechanics, please tally up all the red shit that brds have to run out of in all the dungeons. You could probably count all the times with one hand.
Taken out of rot order? Oh wow, that makes brd sooo damn much harder to play! All the other jobs except for melee and tanks have to deal with that too.
I said this before, there's no problem with brd dps. It is that they have too much utility. Take away their silence, give their "songs" to another job, then you won't see any brds in coil.

[Charas]

Since you mentioned the DG mechanics, please tally up all the red shit that brds have to run out of in all the dungeons. You could probably count all the times with one hand.
Taken out of rot order? Oh wow, that makes brd sooo damn much harder to play! All the other jobs except for melee and tanks have to deal with that too.
I said this before, there's no problem with brd dps. It is that they have too much utility. Take away their silence, give their "songs" to another job, then you won't see any brds in coil.

You clearly don t know how it is be a Bard on silence duty, having to pass rot, dodge slow crap, avoid lazer, hit ur silence when needed and still make it in time to pass the rot to the next in turn before 0. Dude, honestly, melee dps arent harder to play than a Bard, u have less things to think about, you just repeat ur combo casually like any other job, and the only 2 true things that are expected from u is 1) dodge those atacks 2) stay alive at least until u can use ur limit break.

You probably do believe u are very clever, while u sound like a very angry bird, but let s say we take out our silence, and give our songs to another job. Then what? bards will never have to to be on silence duty, or to reduce their dps by 20% to help their team mates. Another job would have to take those silences.... 2 good PLD? sure sure, it does mean that never a warrior would be in a coil party tho.... or maybe a monk? yeee killing their DPS by 50% just so they can stay in the correct stance for it does seem like a WONDERFULL trade. And then.... Songs! who u wanna give them to? can t give it to casters as 1 is made to boost their dmg already, so let s give it again to monk or dragoon!!!!! Here we have a cool idea, let s give songs that have 3 sec cast time and -20% dmg to a class that usually cant dodge things and spend their time whining coz they supposedly dont deal enougth dmg.

[Ryel]

You clearly don t know how it is be a Bard on silence duty, having to pass rot, dodge slow crap, avoid lazer, hit ur silence when needed and still make it in time to pass the rot to the next in turn before 0. Dude, honestly, melee dps arent harder to play than a Bard, u have less things to think about, you just repeat ur combo casually like any other job, and the only 2 true things that are expected from u is 1) dodge those atacks 2) stay alive at least until u can use ur limit break.

You probably do believe u are very clever, while u sound like a very angry bird, but let s say we take out our silence, and give our songs to another job. Then what? bards will never have to to be on silence duty, or to reduce their dps by 20% to help their team mates. Another job would have to take those silences.... 2 good PLD? sure sure, it does mean that never a warrior would be in a coil party tho.... or maybe a monk? yeee killing their DPS by 50% just so they can stay in the correct stance for it does seem like a WONDERFULL trade. And then.... Songs! who u wanna give them to? can t give it to casters as 1 is made to boost their dmg already, so let s give it again to monk or dragoon!!!!! Here we have a cool idea, let s give songs that have 3 sec cast time and -20% dmg to a class that usually cant dodge things and spend their time whining coz they supposedly dont deal enougth dmg.

Rot rotation isn't all that hard even as a melee DPS but you still seem to be forgetting a few points:

BRD is currently in an awkward place to begin with, as it's a semi support that is acting as a ranged DPS

The current game is balanced around the Duty Finder placing parties in groups of 4 effectively making it so there's no room for a true "support" role as it would leave the burden of doing damage on only ONE DPS per party. This is an issue when it comes to designing bosses like Demon Wall that basically function as a DPS race before you lose the fight.

BRD right now is already pushed more towards the DPS role than it ever has been

Anyone who has played BRD since 1.0 can tell you this, in fact BRD's previous cross-class options had CNJ as it's 2nd giving you the ability to battle raise and cure, and your utility was further increased by your songs NOT draining your mana but rather being cooldown based. In addition with your attacks being animation lock restricted you had far less mobility than you do now, oh and did i mention that your attacks actually did combo based on range from the mob?

The changes they have made in 2.0 have sacrificed SOME of it's support features in favor of giving it more DPS, much more than they were capable of before and it appears they are realizing that it might have been nudged too far in the other direction.

If we were talking about something like RANGER which would be full on ranged DPS with no support capability a lot of the arguements would hold more merit than they currently do, but seeing as this isnt the case it should be mentioned once again.

BRD is a semi-support hiding in the skin of a true DPS

This is made even more evident by the lack of a DPS Limit Break, the one you CAN use is shared by two other classes and guess what? Both of them are healers.

Oh and again I've played BRD since 1.0, i actually like it, i even went out and grabbed Relic for it so when i WANT to play BRD nothing is stopping me from doing so.

If you dont believe me: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1307848/

[Phai]

I said this before, there's no problem with brd dps. It is that they have too much utility. Take away their silence, give their "songs" to another job, then you won't see any brds in coil.

I wont argue whit u at anytime that melee dps is unforgiving at times and can be rough, i would loose that argument and spit dust for days.
Anyway, there might be a reason the amount of utility is given to a ranged class, hence the songs, and the silence thats out of gcd. Its a matter of diffrent playstyle and diffrent task's during the encounter.
Ur statment about giving utility's brd has to other classes and make them worthless on the other hand is, well Call it what u want. Taking away ur mainhand and Place a wooden spoon in it would do same to ur class. Ranged dps or melee dps is just diffrent playstyle and there should be room for both.
Lets do as u said, remove brd from the Picture and see what will change for ur class.. sadly not much :/

[Songkla]

Ur statment about giving utility's brd has to other classes and make them worthless on the other hand is, well Call it what u want. Taking away ur mainhand and Place a wooden spoon in it would do same to ur class. Ranged dps or melee dps is just diffrent playstyle and there should be room for both.
Lets do as u said, remove brd from the Picture and see what will change for ur class.. sadly not much :/

I'm not complaining about my class. I think drg dps is sort of good compared to everyone else.
What people are saying, is that brds are doing equal/more dmg to the melee classes (which i dont have a problem with), as well as having all that utility compared to the rest. So what i've said, if brds don't have all their utility, and still have the same dps, they would just be another "dps class". There would be no "looking for 2 brds for coil group". This would kinda give a more even footing for all the dps classes to be selected for what ever group.

[Phai]

There would be no "looking for 2 brds for coil group". This would kinda give a more even footing for all the dps classes to be selected for what ever group.

This i agree on!
If we isolate the problem to coil grps, where i belive the main problem is atm, what would be the solution? Remove brd's utility or some of it? maybe. Reduce brd's dps so low its close to pointless to even bring a brd? could work. Give "struggleing" classes better utility? Maybe the way to go, not sure.
However, the main goal is that every class is wanted and players are free to play the class they like the most and not filterd out due to issues like we have atm. What conserns me the most, is the steps that might be in motion, a good solution? i fear not.
And second, is the class Balance the real issue, or is it the players themself that raise this problem by taking a lazy step and stack x2 brd in coil?!

[Viridiana]

Since you mentioned the DG mechanics, please tally up all the red shit that brds have to run out of in all the dungeons. You could probably count all the times with one hand.

Starting at Stone Vigil (because that's where Tomes start):
SV Boss 1: Have to run behind him when he does his room-wide aoe (Total: 1)
SV Boss 2: Have to play keep-away with the tornadoes, or you die (2)
SV Boss 3: Have to run out of the ice patches, and the mid-air ice patches, and the ice beams where he rakes across the room. (5)
DD Boss 2: Black pools on the ground and lasers of doom (7)
AV Boss 2: Eye of the Beholder, laser eye, and 1,000-tonze swing (10)
WP Boss 1: Moldy Phlegm (11)
WP Boss 2: chase sequence/"target" (12)
AK Boss 1: Void Fira, Rockslide, center golem's attacks (15)
AK Boss 2: I'll combine the black goo's into one, gnat aoe if they spawn/live that long (17)
AK Boss 3: Terror Eye, Imminent Catastrophe (19)
Turn 1: ADS laser, Cad's slime spawns if you're not the spawner, Cad's spit attacks (22)
Turn 2: laser, fire attack. .. probably missing one or two that qualify (24)
Turn 5: Twister, Divebomb, pools of fire (27)
Ifrit: Charge, Plumes, Eruption if your stunner is failing for whatever reason (29) (giving you the Eruption, because it's uncommon nowadays)
Garuda: teleport-AOEs, tornadoes, Slipstream from the adds if they survive and you're tanking them (31)
Titan: Weight of the Land, Bombs, Landslide (34)
Hydra: Fear Itself, fire/ice pools (36)

So, I'm counting 36 different mechanics just in the relic chain and Tome-producing dungeons. Do the melee have to deal with these and more? Sure. But it's flat out dishonest to say that the mechanics BRD has to dodge can be counted on one hand.

Edit: To respond to the issue of "LF2 BRDs for Coil," the best solution would be to educate people and let them know that there's no reason you need two BRDs. Seriously, a second BRD is half-wasted, and could be better spent with pretty much any other DPS class.