Petition: Add A Support Role To The Game.

[Nahara]

This is why I suggest every support role be a DPS at their core (in a similar way to BRD by decreasing their DPS while supporting or have low DPS normally that bumps party DPS) as well as be able to fill DPS slots in a party (to a capped number of course). This way they're not just standing around buffing/debuffing but also actively supporting in the depleting of enemy HP. Even if it was currently implemented with only BRD we would see the queue wait time for all other jobs decrease as BRD would be filling a different slot on their own. Also you'd avoid the problem of no DPS LB by having 2 BRD in a party.

This was a theory that was passed around a while back and I wanted to bring it up again because it made a lot of sense to me and to the other people I shared this with: if Bards (and possibly by extension all other non-magical ranged DDs) had access to a damage-dealing limit break, what's the point in bringing any other damage dealing job? They deal respectable damage, can do it from a safe distance and while moving; all the points that people brought up when asking for Bard nerfs or buffs to the other DDs. I believe that this is mainly why Bards were given the healer Limit Break (on top of it making more sense than calling down meteors, which Casters do, and melee DD being the ones to get the single-target LB).

Now, while I do like the idea of more classes/jobs following in the footsteps of Bard, I like to call them Supportive DDs, I don't think they need any special classification. They're all DDs at heart, so they should just be called what they really are: damage dealers, even if they can contribute a little more to the success of a party than straight damage output.

[Zumi]

FFXIV is a trinity based game how would that fit into DF if they added a support role?

[MartaDemireux]

Each DPS class having a support ability is what makes them unique.

Adding a support role trivializes the DPS classes and results in groups only taking the one with the highest dps.

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree. What makes a class unique is their play mechanic. Just for DPS: MNK changes between forms to build GL to boost their DPS and changes positioning, DRG works in off-GCD jumps, maintaining 2 combo strings and changes positioning, BLM uses the AF/UI mechanic to keep their MP up for continuous nukes, SMN manages their pet, DoT and Aether stacks.

For the second part, this happens anyway. Every game and every fight in this game has "perfect" builds. For speed runs people prefer BRD/BLM/PLD/WHM in my experience. For Tier 5 I've read people saying 2SMN/2BRD/1SCH/1WHM/1PLD/1WAR would be ideal based on some new findings on SMN's utility (can't remember exactly). For Ifrit most groups disband if there isn't a caster LB. For Garuda most groups disband if there isn't any AoE. For most fights people prefer not to have certain jobs. It's going to, and already does, happen. When it comes to adding Support classes, that's another issue to address and they'd have to make sure the support jobs all play differently while still being able to perform as well another, something they should be doing with current jobs as it is anyway.

FFXIV is a trinity based game how would that fit into DF if they added a support role?

I've addressed this in the OP.

Now, while I do like the idea of more classes/jobs following in the footsteps of Bard, I like to call them Supportive DDs, I don't think they need any special classification. They're all DDs at heart, so they should just be called what they really are: damage dealers, even if they can contribute a little more to the success of a party than straight damage output.

Yes, I agree that support jobs should be DD's at heart as I've said in the OP. However I must disagree in that they should queue as DPS. The main reason behind this is 4 man content. With the current system it is possible (and in my experience frequent) to get into a party with 1 Tank LB and 3 Healer LBs. Adding support means every party gets 4 LBs to choose from which gives more variety and utility. Many people drop parties and re-queue when they are in this position, causing longer waits. As future classes are released the DPS queue time is going to skyrocket. If they can queue as a support instead the overall wait time will be reduced.

[raelgun]

I hate to break it to you, but new jobs (and even new classes) are going to be added to the game. It's not really negotiable.

yes, but they will still be part of the holy trinity, its called flavour, some people prefer summ to BLM and vice versa.

This doesn't have to be the case. If they indeed include the option for ACN to choose to be a healer or a DPS role they could do the same for other classes and jobs. Current 4-man fights could be made to fill with either 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS or 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS, 1 Support. 8-man fights could follow the same formula, accepting up to 2 supports.

you cant force people to be specs they dont want, thats what your asking for here

[MartaDemireux]

you cant force people to be specs they dont want, thats what your asking for here

How so? I'm afraid either I'm misunderstanding you or you are misunderstanding me. I've never mentioned forcing a different role on anyone. The only one I've mentioned of the current classes is BRD and that is primarily just a re-classification of it to prevent 2 from ending up in the same party. I'm not talking about completely requiring in what you quoted, I'm talking for duty finder purposes. It's entirely possible to sign up for a duty in a pre-made party made of 4x SMN if you wish to and that wouldn't change.

[raelgun]

your asking people to spec into support in a given fight, thats how it works.
let me tell you a game that has support, RIFT, i was part of a very large alliance, talking about 30 people here, guess how many people was WILLING to be a support, 1, just the 1, fights needed more then 1, thats part of the design of the bosses, they had the roles, they might as well have the fights based on it, the other people were forced to spec, and every raid, the RL had to ask at the start who else can go support, you dont believe how much time was lost, and this is with a raid size with a large roster, how you think it will work out with a smaller size pool FC/LS?

[MartaDemireux]

who else can go support, you dont believe how much time was lost

This happens already. I've seen plenty of cases of "Who else can heal? Who else can Tank?" Everyone seems to love playing BRD with how many times I've gotten into groups with them. On my server I see shouts asking for DPS saying "no bards we have too many of them." Since I'm requesting that all future support roles follow the BRD formula of being a DPS that lowers their damage while supporting (songs, dances, auras etc to either replenish/buff the party or debuff the enemy) or a DPS that has lower damage but boosts the DPS of others in party to make up the difference this shouldn't be much of an issue.

[Nahara]

Yes, I agree that support jobs should be DD's at heart as I've said in the OP. However I must disagree in that they should queue as DPS. The main reason behind this is 4 man content. With the current system it is possible (and in my experience frequent) to get into a party with 1 Tank LB and 3 Healer LBs. Adding support means every party gets 4 LBs to choose from which gives more variety and utility. Many people drop parties and re-queue when they are in this position, causing longer waits. As future classes are released the DPS queue time is going to skyrocket. If they can queue as a support instead the overall wait time will be reduced.

The possible absence of a damage-dealing limit break shouldn't be a deciding factor in the creation of new content. Now, are there some fights where a damage-dealing limit break is incredibly helpful? You bet! Ifrit and Garuda Hard Mode benefit greatly from an AoE Limit Break (nails for Ifrit and the sisters for Garuda), but that doesn't mean those fights are impossible without them. If someone decides to drop group because of a lack of a damage-dealing limit break, that's a fault of the player in question and not the system. The same can be said for the majority of players playing damage dealers to players playing healers or tanks. It's not a fault of the system, it's a fault of the players not wanting to take on the responsibility to be the healer or tank; that's the real problem with Duty Finder queue times.

Splitting the damage dealer group in two isn't going to fix people not wanting to be healers or tanks. In fact, if you really think about it, it may make the problem worse, since now you have to pull people from four different role groups instead of three.

[Wolf_Gang]

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree. What makes a class unique is their play mechanic. Just for DPS: MNK changes between forms to build GL to boost their DPS and changes positioning, DRG works in off-GCD jumps, maintaining 2 combo strings and changes positioning, BLM uses the AF/UI mechanic to keep their MP up for continuous nukes, SMN manages their pet, DoT and Aether stacks.

.

What? The mechanics of each individual dps means absolutely nothing to a group. All the matters is the DPS they put up at the end. And if they have no support abilities that are valuable to other members of the group, then only the top dps would ever get invited.

This was exactly the problem with FFXI DPS classes.

[Esmian]

The possible absence of a damage-dealing limit break shouldn't be a deciding factor in the creation of new content. Now, are there some fights where a damage-dealing limit break is incredibly helpful? You bet! Ifrit and Garuda Hard Mode benefit greatly from an AoE Limit Break (nails for Ifrit and the sisters for Garuda), but that doesn't mean those fights are impossible without them.

Nearly all fights are possible without a damage LB but there's no boss fight in the game where someone is going to say "no thanks" to a 5-18k spike in damage(that's only ST LB. Don't really know the numbers for magic LB but you get the point). Having a party that solely consists of tank/support LB is pretty substandard given how unbelievably underwhelming they are. I think healer/support LB3 is getting a change but tank is still horrible.