Please change taxes...

[Darkwerk]

{cont.}

To try and relate IRL mechanics to a game econemy is naive at best. From absolute experience with varying game economic systems is where i draw my conclusion on this issue,I have seen many many many models play out, and this is the one I prefer. That is not out of greed or anything, just experience. It ,in action benefits everyone with some intellect.


As a post above mentioned, nothing prevents a seller for listing a 10k item for 10 gil to beat taxes..Also nothing prevent a savvy buyer from tossing 10g,100g,500g bid to find a price. If fast and easy is what you want,quality normally suffers. Furthermore it feels much more like the haggle for skins,leathers and ore would feel in such a world,at least in my envisioning such a world.

[Wazabi]

Actually, to state that RL mechanics has no relations to game economy is a naive statement that stems from insufficient understanding on how market, or economy really works. The participants in a game market are RL people, and their behaviour will generally be similar to how they respond to choices in RL, with the addition of some constraints and slight diferent in mechanics. If you have a full understanding on how people's decision interacts and affect the economy, you will understand what I mean.

As for my attitude, I maintain my stance that I am better read than most simply because this is my area of interest. I don't know anything about sports/celebrity news, but I know about the field of economics...I'm not an expert, but very likely know more than most people since most view it as a dry subject. Fellow economics enthusiast out there can easily tell if a person is knowledgable at this subject or not by looking at how the way they explains the details. I'm stating a fact about myself that I know is true, without resorting to sarcastic attempts to belittle my opponents intellect through assumptions on education length.

Everything benefits those who's smarter and also willing to work for it. Your experience tells you its a good thing...what about others? I don't think any of us can say for certain about that. This is where we fall back to the research that acedemics does since it is beyond our knowledge and capability to answer that question...and they basically says that any disparity in information between the buyer and seller creates an inefficient market. I know most of us couldn't care less about other people making profit or not (I know I dont'), but these things matters when you're designing an economy for all the game's population. Also, economic does not look at 1 person's behaviour or the benefit to 1 person...it looks at the behaviour of the whole population.

*Also, you could just make a post, cut it down to 1000 characters, then edit it, and paste the cut out part to put everything under 1 post.

[Zigkid3]

{cont.}

To try and relate IRL mechanics to a game econemy is naive at best.

Bwahahaha!! Oh that is rich! To restate what Wazabi said in the first sentence of post #92 (but in a tone that isn't as nice as his)...

Economics are based off of mathematical models and formulas which are then used to relate to real world phenomena. For the most part they are very accurate, but in the world world there can be a multitude of factors that may influence the market and skew the model such as regulation standards, contracts,etc... literally a ton of factors. However with a game economy, if anything, it follows economic models even more closely than the real world because it has so few factors or even none that get in the way of predictions, and even more importantly market information is easily displayed for everyone to see at any given point immediately unlike the real world which can require people to have to do a ton of research or not be able to get information as easily. So if anything a game market is much much more predictable.

It also works like a real life market, why can't a virtual market work like a real market? what's the difference? Keep in mind currency in and of itself and its value is at heart a subjective value that everyone agrees upon. So we have gil in the game, our currency, people place a value on it just like dollars, euros, pounds, etc... Then we have raw materials and raw material costs. In the real world it takes time and money (equipment) to gather raw materials. In the game to gather materials it takes time and money (character equipment, teleporting and repairs) as well. Time is subjective on how much you value it, this in turn will add to the cost of gathering the raw material as your 'wage' for labor. Then you have processing, in the real world its raw materials, time, and labor. In game for processing it also takes raw materials (whether you bought them or gathered them it still has a cost associated with it), time, and labor (is it NQ or HQ) this also depends if its a one or two star item which you can't mass produce and/or if youre shooting for HQ items. It's very similar.

You should try reading this entire thread from page 1, i explained this through out this thread as well.

As a post above mentioned, nothing prevents a seller for listing a 10k item for 10 gil to beat taxes.

I said that to show how stupid it is to have a fee on listing. If you do, then there must also be a fee on adjustments to prevent that from happening.

[Darkwerk]

Cut

Again the position you take misses the mark from what I know to be fact about gamers. Fact is most people act no where near the same in a game or online in general as they would IRL. Even less so where virtual currency is concerned.
Note i said "most", being those who view this only as a game. They could care less about end game,or maxing their gil or any of the things a more "hardcore" gamer would take as a given. When going to a market they will often,out of apathy or simply not knowing better make hasty decisions.Like say spending more for an item just because they want it, or listing items at the vendor price because it auto fills itself in. It happens a lot, you can see it right now on the MB for this game, or in the market for any other MMO.

These choices are not made out of a need to survive eat and send children to school.They are made just to keep moving along in a game they play off and on and could really take it or leave it.(most ,honestly will leave it sooner rather than later.) So no, people do not act in games the same as they do in life. As for editing my post v/s continuing ,I do what I find easier most convenient.As everyone should,maybe sooner rather than later they will figure out how ridiculous the post limit is. (however this one I'll edit just for you. )

[Wazabi]

See, it is you who's missing the point, and your statements & arguments conclusively implies to me you lack in depth knowledge on this subject.

Would a person buy an item selling for 5g or 10g? Right... what would they do in RL? same? Good.

Will a person sell something at below cost in game? They will, it's obvious. Will they do it in RL? They do too...if they need to get rid of it fast.

Are people more cautious with RL money? I'll bet they are. Are they so with in game money? Not so much...so that's a difference. However, what causes the difference? Are we looking at fundamental difference here? I mean, they still behave similarly, but seems to be more careless about their money...Can I conclude that the game has no RL economics elements in it? Not really coz they do obey some fundamental behaviours just like in real life. So why the difference?

Say in RL you have no money...can you just go get a job and get money? Not neccesarily. If you have no money in a game, can you get money after farming for 1hour? Definately! This introduces the principle of uncertainties which causes human to behave differently in RL and in game. Slightly different in terms of their moneys, but they will still generally prefer something cheaper than the ones that is more expansive.

But what about selling at below cost? Well...what does it cost you to make money in game? Only time...so even if I sell a piece of electrum ore at 1g, I'm still making a 1g PROFIT. Why would someone sell equipments at below cost price? Then they are making a loss right? ISn't that just stupid or ignorent? Not neccesarily. In taking the lost, I've gained xp for crafting the item...so I consider that a cost to pay to convert my time and gils into crafting xp. Sounds rational to me.

And as you've mentioned, there's no maintainance in the game...so you can be more liberal with your spendings...but the way a person spends still follows the fundamental economic laws. It is the constraints that has changed, but the same law governs the behaviour in this new environment.

You failed to see beyond that into the deeper mechanics, thus I can understand your persistence in this arguement. Like it or not...everything that you get in game is based of some data of the real world. As long as humans are playing the game, it will to a certain degree be governed by real world mechanics.

There are a lot of uninformed market participants out there...I see a few seller that sells with auto fill...but not as often when compared to the other players that are aggresively trying to price their goods. The occurance of such behaviours are statistically insignificant to generalize that behaviour to the whole population...which unfortunately is what most amateur cites to back their argument.

[Darkwerk]

First off, you can stop taking me out of context and trying to use a wall of text to hammer everyone with a different opinion.

I think it is yourself who fails to see deeper. The elements that even you agree differ from IRL are so key as to change everything.The degree it changes would be where we disagree. You claim to have gained some insight as to my grasp of economics based upon my assertion that it differs in a game than IRL.Well I can gain insight into you based upon the method you use to debate. Sure, I will grant it to you that I was rude to you first, however that came from reading a few other posts you had made. You come off as a first or second year student,who just decided that economics is for them, now you try to wave that flag in everyone's face.

{cut}

[Darkwerk]

I assure you my grasp of the subject not only rivals your own,but most likely surpasses it. I am sorry,but almost every player who will max their possible holding in any given game,understands the differences between IRL and game economies. It is actually a mix of psychology and economics one must apply. ..I will not be continuing this conversation however,as I know the type I am conversing with and trying to get any point across but the one you currently hold is pointless.

Good luck on the future conquest of Wall Street..lol..

[Zigkid3]

Darkwerk, maybe instead of trying to discredit someone, try doing so by picking their argument apart rather than resorting to appeal to authority tactics and calling someone a 1st or 2nd year college student. regardless of whether or not they are will not make a difference in their actual argument. I can say for sure that wazabi knows a lot more than you do about economics. anything youve said is literally just an opinion on a difference on how people might behave in a game or irl, but nothing with validity.

[Wazabi]

Well darkwerk...none of your post have sufficiently explain your own claims. Basically what you've done here is saying "the earth is flat" and you know it for certain because you know more....but fail to provide justification, explanation, and rebuttal of other people's argument. What you've been using was just a blanket statement and trying to discredit me with, no suprise, blanket unjustified statement. When I explain my case to you in detail, then it's a wall of text hammer to you...I'll leave it for the other readers to judge.

Also, I don't know the deal about the conquest of wall street statement....but an economist is almost never a good stock market trader, what you're probably thinking is a quant...but hey, I'm sure you've already know that with your extensive economic knowledge.

[Xystic]

Darkwerk, maybe instead of trying to discredit someone, try doing so by picking their argument apart rather than resorting to appeal to authority tactics and calling someone a 1st or 2nd year college student. regardless of whether or not they are will not make a difference in their actual argument. I can say for sure that wazabi knows a lot more than you do about economics. anything youve said is literally just an opinion on a difference on how people might behave in a game or irl, but nothing with validity.

Yes, I agree. I also feel the last post he made was very unnecessary.

Very unprofessional for someone who appears to claim to be a professional in the same field.