Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[ashikenshin]

If you buy an expansion like CoP and don't get to see half of it then you are not getting your money's worth. I stopped during CoP and resubbed when ToAU came out. ToAU was the better expansion IMO. Just like wrath of the lich king was the best WoW expansion so far.

[Grundy]

Not a chance, SE learned from COP's abject failure, content that only around 15% of the players have completed over two years after release (SE's own figures at the time) is clearly a fail, they won't repeat that mistake.

I loved/hated CoP so much. Subligar parties rocked though, there is not a more beautiful site in the whole of Vana'diel than a Galka Beastmaster with his Gaudy Harness and Ophiuchus Subligar. Yes people, that was me. No shame.

[Besbeset]

People have fun by "Beating the game." and playing with friends. People don't like being left behind or excluded. Many people have stated that it makes them feel like they're not getting the complete game. WoW also learned from this. In vanilla WoW only 4% of their population got to see the end game raids. So what did they do? Dropped the raids to 20 man as opposed to 40 man. Still, the majority of the population weren't seeing them. Solution 3? Make an easier form that is 10 man and have the harder form that is 20 man. Each expansion (up to cataclysm) increased it's player base so obviously what they did was right. You want to allow the majority of the player base to complete content or they're not very happy players.

Then your vision of games is completely different to mine. For me a game isn't only fun when you finish it. I enjoy all the ride, not just the nice CGI at the end.
You say "People don't like being left behind or excluded", my answer is: "socialize". Meet new people, try to make friends in-game. Be nice with them and beat the stuff together. Maybe then you'll change your opinion about what is fun in a game.

You said WoW learned from this, when its highest peak of players was right at the launch of Wrath of the Lich King. And that is thanks to the success of Burning Crusade, an expansion with really hardcore end-game which only a few was able to accomplish: Kaelthas, Lady Vashj, Sunwell Plateau...

So you talking about an issue with the population of WoW as just a 4% of the ppl saw the end-game in Vanilla, but is fun to see that the decrease on subscriptions started right when they made the game accessible for everyone.

"Each expansion (up to cataclysm) increased it's player base so obviously what they did was right." You're completely wrong with that. Please double check that information before assuring anything. As I said, the highest peak was in WOTLK (like 12,5 million subs), and as I said that was thx to the success of BC.

[Reslin]

Then your vision of games is completely different to mine. For me a game isn't only fun when you finish it. I enjoy all the ride, not just the nice CGI at the end.
You say "People don't like being left behind or excluded", my answer is: "socialize". Meet new people, try to make friends in-game. Be nice with them and beat the stuff together. Maybe then you'll change your opinion about what is fun in a game.

So you talking about an issue with the population of WoW as just a 4% of the ppl saw the end-game in Vanilla, but is fun to see that the decrease on subscriptions started right when they they made the game accessible for everyone.

Actually that wasn't it at all. It maintained that high peak throughout WOTLK. Cata tried to re-define the world while going back on certain things made in WOTLK. I also didn't literally mean "People are only satisfied if they win the game." what I was referring to was that people are satisfied only if they're able to have a shot at end game content. Making new friends in an mmo to run with isn't the same as running with your irl friends. Look, I've played old school mmorpgs and loved them for what they are but you have to understand the average person didn't play mmo's for those very reasons. Even Vanilla WoW was far more accessible than current mmo's at the time and Blizzard attributed their success due to said accessibility. I've had many friends who would quit the games I played because they couldn't stomach the grind or difficulty in catching up with me. Even if I went back to help them they didn't want to sit around and level for what felt like forever.

I've become much the same way now that I'm more accustomed to newer mmorpgs. If a game takes 3 months to level in? I'm not playing it. "Having fun playing the game." for me is downing difficult bosses that you must learn in order to defeat. I want access to all my abilities and I want to be excited at new gear. I want to get my character to his peak and then go beyond that.

Notice that this sentiment is shared. When you ask to push this game away from being more casual friendly you get more resistance than support. By the way I want to see other things you can do other than straight up combat. Luckily for me FF14 already has plans to include minigames.

[Besbeset]

Actually that wasn't it at all. It maintained that high peak throughout WOTLK. Cata tried to re-define the world while going back on certain things made in WOTLK. I also didn't literally mean "People are only satisfied if they win the game." what I was referring to was that people are satisfied only if they're able to have a shot at end game content. Making new friends in an mmo to run with isn't the same as running with your irl friends. Look, I've played old school mmorpgs and loved them for what they are but you have to understand the average person didn't play mmo's for those very reasons. Even Vanilla WoW was far more accessible than current mmo's at the time and Blizzard attributed their success due to said accessibility. I've had many friends who would quit the games I played because they couldn't stomach the grind or difficulty in catching up with me. Even if I went back to help them they didn't want to sit around and level for what felt like forever.

I've become much the same way now that I'm more accustomed to newer mmorpgs. If a game takes 3 months to level in? I'm not playing it. "Having fun playing the game." for me is downing difficult bosses that you must learn in order to defeat. I want access to all my abilities and I want to be excited at new gear. I want to get my character to his peak and then go beyond that.

Notice that this sentiment is shared. When you ask to push this game away from being more casual friendly you get more resistance than support. By the way I want to see other things you can do other than straight up combat. Luckily for me FF14 already has plans to include minigames.

I do agree with you and have to correct my data of WoW. But if you check this graph: http://arewenewatthis.files.wordpres...d-wow-subs.jpg you have to agree that the highest peak/ratio of increase was in Vanilla and TBC.

You can't state that "ppl is only satisfied if they're able to try the end-game", because that's simply not true, is a matter of opinions and not a general rule. Not everyone seeks to do end-game, there are more things to enjoy in a game.

I agree that playing with irl friends is funny, but I think that is really important to socialize and meet new people in order to have fun.
I'm sorry but Vanilla WoW wasn't more accessible that MMOs nowadays. I know what it took just to attune for Onyxia, and also the endless wipefest trying to kill her. And I'm not talking about Molten Core... No, it wasn't that accessible.

The problem is that people mindset about games is wrong. Today is all about a non-stop race to reach the level cap and play the end the game. And that makes you feel that is all a grind fest because the rest doesn't matter. People want's everything and they want it now, or they aren't happy with it. That's the current generation of gamers.

[Reslin]

The problem is that people mindset about games is wrong. Today is all about a non-stop race to reach the level cap and play the end the game. And that makes you feel that is all a grind fest because the rest doesn't matter. People want's everything and they want it now, or they aren't happy with it. That's the current generation of gamers.

Except WoW even in Vanilla was designed to have an easy leveling system because the game only begins at end game. This is the philosophy Blizzard has used since the beginning. This is why they made changes in future expansions in order to showcase that. Yes Vanilla WoW wasn't that accessible but there was still a plethora of dungeons that could be done. BC had the biggest jump but I'd argue by then they already had the majority of the mmorpg market. With WOTLK drawing some more people in. Blizzard has always stated that WoW begins at the end game so the game was made with that in mind. You claim "That's what's wrong with gamers nowadays." I disagree. This sounds like the whole "The kids of this generation have no taste. They don't know what good music is or what good movies are. Everything is worse. They're more violent not as bright." spoken by the previous generation well.. each generation. There's nothing wrong with the game beginning at the level cap it's just a different way of doing things.

In my opinion the way the leveling system was designed was accepted because it was the only way things were being done. Things were being done in that manner to keep people subscribing in order to make money. Putting in as many time sinks as necessary. To me it's been proven that those time sinks are no longer necessary. There's other games I can play that avoid them. Spending 30+ minutes to find a group just to spend the next 6 hours grinding one mob at a time to gain a level is just.. atrocious. In vanilla wow the hoops you have to jump through to get attuned is pointless (imo). Gates are also stupid. If something is to exist in your game world there shouldn't be much to prevent you from just doing it. I oppose of the weekly myth cap as well for the same reasons. The only baring on how much myth I should be able to receive is my own playtime. That being said, it's not enough to make me quit or believe this to be a bad game. I oppose the old mmo model completely.

The only thing I'm sad about is there's no current old school style mmo out to appease the people who do want it. I really do think there should be games for everyone and if I had any power in the gaming industry I think EQ classic server should be launched and I think a FF11 classic server should exist. I'm sure there's enough people that want it to at-least accommodate a single server but I don't want FF14 to become an old school mmorpg. I joined FF14 because I like FF14 and to me it becoming something else would be like Abyssea launching for FF11 or POK launching for EQ.

[Besbeset]

First of all, I enjoy this conversations and I'm not trying to convince anyone. I just like to expose my views and ideas about this. But please, let me expand some of your information so everyone gets the whole and real picture.

Except WoW even in Vanilla was designed to have an easy leveling system because the game only begins at end game. This is the philosophy Blizzard has used since the beginning. This is why they made changes in future expansions in order to showcase that.

By the things you say it looks like you've played Vanilla WoW+BC, but I'm afraid you forgot a couple of things if you did. Leveling up to 60 took a lot of time, can't be compared with how fast you level up now.

Running dungeons also took a lot of time, and when I say "a lot" I really mean it. I remember doing some 3-4 hours LBRS runs (yeah, a single dungeon), and that's just an example.
Dungeons in Vanilla/BC can't be compared with how are they nowadays.

BC had the biggest jump but I'd argue by then they already had the majority of the mmorpg market.

No they didn't, as you saw on the graph. That aren't my words, is the truth. The highest amount of subs came both with Vanilla and TBC. It heavily stopped when WOTLK was launched. This is a fact, you can't deny that.

You claim "That's what's wrong with gamers nowadays." I disagree. This sounds like the whole "The kids of this generation have no taste. They don't know what good music is or what good movies are. Everything is worse. They're more violent not as bright." spoken by the previous generation well.. each generation. There's nothing wrong with the game beginning at the level cap it's just a different way of doing things.

I agree with everything. Is just a matter of opinions as I also said. But think about this: why did people enjoyed so much RPG and games in general on the console golden age generation?
Yeah, when there was no even internet to seek help or a walkthrough guide to progress in your games.

I'll tell you: because nothing can be compared with the satisfaction and sense of reward when you finally defeat that undefeatable boss or solve that incredible hard puzzle.
Is all about improving and the desire to overcome the difficulties.

But yeah, I can agree that not all the people enjoy things that way. And I also agree that there should be games that suits everyone's needs and styles of play. But money is the boss here my friend...

I oppose of the weekly myth cap as well for the same reasons. The only baring on how much myth I should be able to receive is my own playtime. That being said, it's not enough to make me quit or believe this to be a bad game. I oppose the old mmo model completely.

If there would be no cap, people will complain even more about running out of stuff to do in-game. It's impossible (from a pure business point of view), to design a game that continuously covers the needs of all the players. You have to think about the time, people and money that is needed to develop a raid or even a single dungeon. Time sinks (in this or that way) must exist for the wealth of the whole project.

[Malamasala]

The problem is that people mindset about games is wrong. Today is all about a non-stop race to reach the level cap and play the end the game. And that makes you feel that is all a grind fest because the rest doesn't matter. People want's everything and they want it now, or they aren't happy with it. That's the current generation of gamers.

People keep writing this nonsense all the time. Ever seen the game chess? How many months do you have to grind the pieces before you can play "endgame"?


Exactly, there are tons of games that hand you everything from the start, and they are still fun because of the depth of the games. You don't need someone telling you that they will give you a car 5% of the time you beat them, you can play just because playing is fun.

FFXIV is welcome to add any extreme content they want, but it should have zero rewards and be there for fun. Rewards are for easy content where everyone can access it and enjoy it. The reason this is the only way to design games, is because else you have elitists around saying "they play for the challenge" when in fact they just want to brag about their unique drops that others can't get. And I for one can go without jerks in my MMOs. I want to hang with the fun loving crowd who appreciate others having fun.

[Cendres]

Whenever I see this thread pop up, over and again, I wish people would play more then just FF Online and WoW. You might learn something. Like we are in a new era of gaming entirely which no longer has anything to do with FFXI vs WoW design. That concept is outdated and means nothing. Quit harping this song.

[Reslin]

First of all, I enjoy this conversations and I'm not trying to convince anyone. I just like to expose my views and ideas about this. But please, let me expand some of your information so everyone gets the whole and real picture

I'll address your posts

1. Yes leveling took awhile but let's be real. It still didn't take anywhere near the leveling time of FF11 or Everquest. The leveling time was reduced drastically. In the time it took me to hit level 40 in FF11 I had two 60's in WoW. Now in current WoW I could probably have 3-4 max level characters.

2. The graph proves my point but I think you didn't understand my wording. I stated "BC had the biggest jump but by then.." I mean after BC's release they already owned a large majority of the mmo market. The population saw a rise after WOTLK but not anywhere near as close to how many people joined in the BC because by then.. most mmo players were already playing WoW. I have no proof to back this up so it's conjecture. Just a theory/opinion.

3. Agree with your point here but the same exists here. Twintannia was "unbeatable" for a really long time and there's players who are still stuck on Titan. There are challenges here that people strive to beat and with extreme modes on the horizon hopefully there will be plenty more. Time sink does not mean difficulty. There can be difficulty without a massive time sink. Also RPGS are just as big today as they are back then. Just RPG's have changed. Look at the elderscrolls series. Very popular RPG's. Then there's Dragon Age (the first one) KOTOR, Mass effect, and more. These are very popular RPG's.

4. Disagree here. If I was in charge there'd be no cap but the cost of the gear would be higher. This means the casual player will still take a very long time to acquire said gear but not because of arbitrary caps. Whereas a hardcore player would still obtain said gear faster.