New jobs upcoming, new tanks?

[AndrewAlexander]

I'm pretty sure Musketeer is coming soon.... There are already a few little "Easter eggs" in the game that would suggest it. I.E. if you go into the your FC emblem edit thing, there is a sign for each job in the game AND 1 extra, 1 with 2 pistols crossed... So here's to hoping.

The musketeer or Corsair emblem in Coral Tower as well.

The best idea to understand upcoming new jobs is to look at data models that are already built into the game. Merlwyb's guns. Raubahn dual wielding swords.

To move further into the idea of WAR, if we're looking how it developed in XI --- WAR could be a placeholder tank until future development is in place to add an additional tank. Generally it meets the demands of current content, but may be expanded to be a stronger DPS class and act as a tank filler in a pinch. This game will develop dynamically and the current state will not represent the future state.

[Kadesh]

Everyone who is saying FFXI DRK was aggression only that was only during 75 cap content. DRK got a Total of 7 defensive skills after they raised the level cap to 99.

• Drain, a self heal
• Drain 2, a self heal that boosted max hp
• Dark seal, increased the amount of hp you could drain through accuracy
• Nether Void, increased the amount of hp you could drain
• Dread Spikes, drained hp every time you took damage and gets a bonus from max hp increase
• Catastrophe, weapon skill that drains hp
• Entropy, weapon skill that drains mp.

So you could do combos like this.
Dark Seal > Drain to full hp > Nether Void > Drain 2 to max hp +20% > Dread spikes > weapons skill of your choice.

Stacking Nether Void onto Drain 2 then dread Spike with that hp bonus did a ton of mitigation, and If you needed more mp to cast drains and dread spikes you had Entropy to get mp back. Or if you took a few hits and still have enough mp you could top off your hp with Catastrophe.

[Kitru]

@Kitru: I get your arguments and I get your points, but you are using them in a complete "zero gravity" kind of environment. It is a fact that majority of players prefer DD classes over Tanks.

I actually addressed that already. It's part of that whole "social engineering" point I brought up. *Yes*, fewer people like to tank or heal than DPS (and fewer people like to tank than heal) and by a pretty overwhelming majority, but if the devs only ever went by what most people play, the only things that would ever get added are new DPS classes. The devs have to do *something* to attract more players to tanking and healing and adding new classes is, honestly, one of the best ways to do it. If they make the class enjoyable, approachable, and come with an interesting playstyle even people that were initially reticent will oftentimes give it a go. This is not to say that *every* that plays DPS will love it, but *some* will switch sides, which is a better thing for the game than some of those tanks switching sides because the new class made them jump the fence (and adding a new class *always* causes some people to jump fences). Even if fewer people play a class when it's implemented as one role rather than another, it can actually be *better* for the game a whole for the developers to do so.

Did you ever wonder why every class that has been added in WoW has a tank tree (which is as close as WoW ever gets to an explicit "tanking class" given the whole "3 specs")? Monk only has a single DPS tree because it's a tank and a healer even though monk as healer is kind of approaching a certain level of incredulity. Yes, fewer people would play the tanking specs than the DPS specs *but that wasn't the point*. The issue was that the devs were *constantly* hearing complaints about there never being enough tanks along with complaints about there not being enough *variety* amongst the tanks. DPS had variety coming out of every imaginable orifice since there were loads of excellent DPS classes and specs. Tanks had 2. As such, they added a class that they knew that fewer people would get the full mileage out of because they were trying to shift the population a little bit more towards a balanced structure and, honestly, it worked. It wasn't world shattering, but it *did* increase the number of tanks out there relative to the DPS by leeching a few away. In the end, that's better for the game as a whole than just adding another option to a role that *already* has more options than any other.

PS: There is a simple reason why SE won't implement DRK as a tanking class. Cause it would be based on a "2-handed weapon wielding" class...and that role is already filled by Warrior.

It's not like there should be *only* 1 2-handed tank. Weapon selection is a purely aesthetic consideration. As was previously stated, a class could be given a *spoon* to tank with (I'm imagining Quina from 9 in full plate armor) and it would be just fine as long as it worked well mechanically. THM/BLM and CNJ/WHM can use shields, but that doesn't make them tanks (nor does it really increase their survivability in any noticeable way). The way the game works, you don't *need* to have a shield to be an effective tank. The only thing that matters is if the class looks and feels like a tank and DK pretty well does that, what with the intimidating heavy armor and giant beatstick. I'd honestly be more surprised if they added more shield tanks than if they didn't, given how few classes other than paladins and knights across the FF games are really seen as using them as part of their default loadout.

It's also not like 2h swords are going to be used in the exact same manner as 2h axes, especially when you factor in the whole "dark magicks" thing that Dark Knight would bring along. Gladiator isn't just generic sword and shield: it's got some pretty obvious PLD stuff attached to it (Rage of Halone, Circle of Scorn, Flash). If a 2h sword class is designed to be grown into Dark Knight, you can be pretty sure that it's not just going to act like a carbon copy of WAR with a sword instead of an axe.

On top of this, if Dark Knight is added as a DPS job, I wouldn't expect it to be given a 2h sword anyways. Yoshi-P already commented upon how GLA could be turned into a DPS via Dark Knight by removing the "additional effect: high enmity" tags when you job switch to it. If they go to the effort of making an entirely new class to use 2h swords, I fully expect it to be a tanking class if only because tanks need new options as well (and ninja, red mage, musketeer, and a lot of other jobs that people are demanding are pretty much *guaranteed* to be DPS classes so they've already got more options coming to them).

This is also the reason why Berserker will never be a tanking job. Cause it would be based on Marauder...that's the only "reasonable" class to base it on thus making it obvious to become a DD class, cause they won't have 2 jobs filling the same role on one class.

I've actually gone over this a number of times and it actually makes more sense, as far as the FF historical precedent is concerned, for Berserker to be a tank based off of the PGL: Berserker has more unarmed combat implementations than axe wielding implementations and has always been a *very* durable class (*always* high hp and either *really* high evasion or *really* high defense). It wouldn't even require all that much tweaking of the PGL itself to have it turned into a tanking job either (90% def/mdef multiplier, 25% ehp increase, Greased Lighting increases evasion by 7.5% per stacks rather than damage while in tank stance, remove the positional requirements and add additional enmity to either the forms or the attacks themselves).

Instead of arguing about FF standards, rules, regulations and the FF universe in general, you would be better off basing your arguments on logic and MMORPG standards, rules and regulations.

Your also forgetting the MMO rule of "everyone needs to have a similar degree of options". If dark knight, berserker, and samurai are all turned into DPS jobs, what does that leave for new tanking jobs? Leaving the number of tank jobs at 2 while the number of DPS jobs goes into the double digits and low teens (there are 5 now, they've already announced musketeer and you can expect ninja to follow suit soon after as well) isn't really going to do much for the game other than screw it up and piss off all of the tanks. There are a *lot* more jobs out there in the FF universe likely to become DPS jobs than tank jobs: blue mage, red mage, time mage, thief/ninja, beastmaster, musketeer/cannoneer/engineer/pirate, geomancer. Unless you start getting really obscure, you really only have Dark Knight, Samurai, Berserker, and Mystic Knight as the jobs that are tank viable. Basic logic would tell you that they wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot by turning all of their best candidates for tank jobs into DPS jobs (which is kind of my entire point). I don't honestly think that *all* of the potential tank jobss will actually become tank jobs. I simply think that a *majority* of them will and that anyone claiming that they *have* to be implemented as a DPS job is simply talking out of their poorly informed and logically impaired ass.

And the base rule for ANY MMORPG is...if 2 classes feel too much the same or are too similiar to each other...one of them gets scratched before they make it into the game. DRK as a tank would be too close to WAR...hence if/when implemented, it won't be a tanking class. It's not rocket science...it's just logic and common sense.

It doesn't matter if you think that DRK and WAR as tanks would be too similar based upon how you *think* DRK should be implemented. In no other implementation of WAR was it given anything approaching hp "draining" abilities (though, thematically, it's less "hp drain" and more "hitting people makes me happy" since it's not like WAR is using any kind of magic; it's basically hitting people increasing the WAR's morale and allowing it to ignore pain) nor was BLM given a waxing and waning resource pool or BRD simply a few songs slapped onto ARC. Monk had absolutely nothing to do with swapping forms and neither it nor DRG had anything approaching positional The only thing that matters is that the thematic and aesthetic underpinnings of the class be upheld and you can do that pretty easily without encroaching upon the WAR "big hp and self healing" shtick.

Dark Knight could just as easily be implemented without *any* hp draining abilities whatsoever. In doing so, it would have no real mechanical overlap with WAR. You could easily do the whole "hp sacrifice" thing as part of its CD suite, so that it sacrifices hp to reduce damage taken (imagine sacrificing 25% of current max hp to increase damage reduction by 50% for 15 seconds; you could even have the tank stance provide some level of passive regeneration to "offset" the sacrifice without stepping on WAR toes). Any suggestion that there would be *thematic* overlap based upon using a 2h weapon, I recommend you look at the weapons and attacks that WAR uses and then look at the weapons and attacks that dark knight tends to have. WAR has lots and lots of axe swings in wide, wild arcs. DRK would pack black doomy clouds and single big strokes of the blade with big wind ups.

Just because you lack the vision to see how DRK could be developed as a tank that doesn't play like WAR doesn't mean that the developers don't. Hell, the fact that they've done a really good job of making all of the existing classes play very differently would suggest that they've already got the chops for it. I honestly have a harder time thinking up new *healers* than I do new tanks because they've already covered most of the different ways that healers tend to work (both have strong direct healing, WHM has HoTs, SCH has pet *and* shields *and* damage reduction).

[Kadesh]

I would love to see both a tank DRK and a DPS DRK based off of the same weapon, maybe scythe or great sword. Could have magic drains and dread spikes for defense and soul eater / darkness type attacks for dps.

[Gandora]

Everyone who is saying FFXI DRK was aggression only that was only during 75 cap content. DRK got a Total of 7 defensive skills after they raised the level cap to 99.


Stacking Nether Void onto Drain 2 then dread Spike with that hp bonus did a ton of mitigation, and If you needed more mp to cast drains and dread spikes you had Entropy to get mp back. Or if you took a few hits and still have enough mp you could top off your hp with Catastrophe.

Well, even with all of that no one brought DRK to tank, not even something as easy as Briareus or Fafnir at Lv99, somes "might" have done it, does not mean its the way to go. Dread spike had an aweful recast & a very short duration. Also did you mention Catastrophe? lol Its like saying a PLD need Holy shield to tank in FFXIV.

Someone was saying "DRK can be a tank which can use its HP to deal damage." Because a tank is supposed to burn his HP down to deal damages, especialy on boss such as Titan, right guys?

[Kosmos992k]

I'd just like it if the combat system allowed me to have enough flexibility with my Paladin that I could create two completely different builds - passive mitigation and active mitigation.

Basically a heavy Paladin vs a finesse Paladin.

From what I have seen though, it's not viable to try to buck the system with PLD or WAR builds.

Seriously though, I'd like the option to focus my PLD build on heavier armor, shields and weapons (passive mitigation)- at the cost of speed and dodging/parry ability in return for greater DEF and stronger mitigation with shield blocks, or alternately lighter armor, weapon and shields (active mitigation) at the cost of lower DEF and weaker blocks, but better speed and dodging/parrying of attacks.

It gives Paladins two ways to go, and since the skill sets remain the same, so long as the damage potential of each build type balances over time, neither grants an advantage unless a player knows how to fully take advantage of each build. The damage mitigated by each type of build would also have to be balanced so that over time, neither is at an advantage or disadvantage - depending on how they are played of course. Paladin players could therefore go in more than one direction without stepping on the toes of the Warrior who uses higher base HP and self healing to accomplish the same effect as the passive/active mitigation.

Of course I'd say that you could do the same for Warrior. A heavier warrior might do more damage per attack and have stronger armor, but a lighter, faster warrior would keep up in the damage department with their flurry of attacks. Lighter armor results in more damage being taken, but lower GCD means more self healing over time.

[Kadesh]

Well, even with all of that no one brought DRK to tank, not even something as easy as Briareus or Fafnir at Lv99

No one is saying at 99 that DRK is a better tank than PLD or NIN, but yes I would tank low lv Abyssea NM or Dynamis boss if no one else was around.

Also did you mention Catastrophe? lol Its like saying a PLD need Holy shield to tank in FFXIV.

A lot of people have relic scyth now, its not a big deal. Also they are making it so you dont need relic to use this weapon skill.


Also the point wasn't DRK is a tank in FFXI at 99, the point is DRK have several deffensive abilities at 99 where most people are saying they have none.

[TirionCrey]

Everyone who is saying FFXI DRK was aggression only that was only during 75 cap content. DRK got a Total of 7 defensive skills after they raised the level cap to 99.

• Drain, a self heal
• Drain 2, a self heal that boosted max hp
• Dark seal, increased the amount of hp you could drain through accuracy
• Nether Void, increased the amount of hp you could drain
• Dread Spikes, drained hp every time you took damage and gets a bonus from max hp increase
• Catastrophe, weapon skill that drains hp
• Entropy, weapon skill that drains mp.

I dont know what FFXI you played but the one I played during 75 cap, my DRK had Drain, Drain 2, Dark Seals and Dread Spikes already. And Catastrophe was the Relic Scythe or Great Sword Weapon Skill, can't remember which one it was. And never could I tank anything on DRK back then. The only times I ever tanked and actually got healed was when I Soul Eater Kraken Club'ed the shit out of things.

[Obreck]

On the subject of Evasion tanks: they can be done and done right. One of the things SWTOR got right was maintaining a fairly balanced evasion tank class (Sith Assassin). The class did its job well without completely overshadowing the other tank classes. At least until they nerfed it for PvP reasons, which shouldn't be an issue in this game.

In this regard some traditionally lithe class would be a good fit, and ninja seems fairly well suited. As a DPS ninja would be difficult to set apart from Monk and Thief (and we all know Thief will be added). Aside from that maybe some class adapted to a martial staff combat, though can't think of one that would fit the role outside a very, vary abstract manner such as dancer (similar to the way Scholar was shoehorned it healing).

On a different note I'll just be happy if one of the following becomes a tank class: Samurai, Ninja, Mage Knight, Dark Knight, and/or Red Mage.

[Kadesh]

snip.

At NA launch time DRK had drain 1 and less than 0.001% of the population could get relic scythe. They added things slowly over the years to get everything they have now. Most only coming after TOA. And no, pre 99 even with defensive abilities DRK could not tank. It was Only after hast gear being achievable and lowering cool downs on spells that made it possible. Everyone with a 99 could have capped haste for spells without spending a lot of time or money on gear so drains came fast.

Also I think you are missing my point, I'm not saying DRK was a tank in ffxi, I'm saying DRK was not the defenseless glass cannon people are making it out to be.