Has SE screwed itself?

[Ehayte]

Honestly, I don't expect "support" to become a true role. If they do DNC, I see it as either a DPS/support class, like a melee version of BRD, or a straight up healer. I expect that, rather than trying to create a support role and redo the entire balance structure, they'll go the route of just tweaking the vision of the class to fulfill a role within the trinity: it's simpler, just as effective for bringing the class into game, and doesn't require a reworking of so many other things.

Must...climb...wall of text...must...organize....thoughts!

1) Back End - I don't see any problem with this at all. My ability to tank depends on the SCH's ability to keep me alive, a Dragoon's dps depends on my ability to keep Enmity, it would make the game more fun if more collaboration was needed. This seems like something we disagree on in a non-mechanically fashion. You said "Performance being solely contingent upon the play of others" (paraphrasing)...isn't that the definition of a support role...? Am I crazy? It sounds like you don't like support roles, lol.
2) Solo Play - Every class has some dps abilities to it, even CNJ, you can easily create a cleric-stance like ability to compensate for this. My vision of Demi would do that just fine. Fire potency "Y" would turn into Fire potency "Y"x2 within demi's circle if you are soloing. For Dancer...I dunno give it the stance "Break Dance" where auto attack potency is tripled, couple that with pure dps songs playing and you get competitive solo-style play with any other class. I don't see an issue with this at all. Easy to fix. Next.
3) % based buff/debuffs: Uhhh....Rage of Halone, Butcher's Block, Haymaker, Fight or Flight, Featherfoot, Blood for Blood, Mantra . . . all of those are % based, so its fine. I get your point of gear needing to make a different in the main aspect of the job, so fine, make them hard wired to weapon value, I don't care. Its completely irrelevant to the main point.
4) Multiple support characters: What? If you ran 6 support chars, 1 tank, 1 healer, who would do the dps? It sounds like they just made the support chars OPed in the game you were talking about. That argument has no substance, I feel like you are just trolling now. I have played several MMOs with *explicit* support characters, and stacking them together didn't do anything because it didn't offer enough benefit. You have literally no ground to stand on with this. Everquest 1 has 2 (arguably 3) *explicit* support roles, and has been balanced and around for 13 years, and those classes are not stacked in raids.
5) On your last paragraph that I quoted, I suspect you are right. It would certainly be possible and fun, but they probably won't do it. I will concede that it would be problematic if you used DF and got DNC DNC WAR SCH for a dungeon, or TMM TMM PLD WHM

[Raziel7777]

What about redmage doing something similar to arcanist? Split into either bluemage or redmage. Maybe arcanist and BLM makes redmage and arcanist and whitemage makes bluemage.

[Duelle]

What about redmage doing something similar to arcanist? Split into either bluemage or redmage. Maybe arcanist and BLM makes redmage and arcanist and whitemage makes bluemage.

Seeing that neither job has anything to do with the other, that would not work.

[Sylve]

snip

You still haven't given a convincing argument on why Jobs should be a priority over Classes because of 'casuals'.
I have friends who only play a few hours on weekends, both have one class at 50, and are currently working on multiple new classes.

We do agree at least in part, that some Classes could get alt role Jobs, But some classes, In my honest opinion, should not. PGL, LNC, CNJ being notable ones. Giving a DPS Job to Marauder is fine, they can just use DRG style gear with tweaked traits/skills, thats fine.
But a Tank Job for PGLs? Please no! They would be required to either wear heavier gear (which goes directly against the PGL lore), or have weird percentile buffs to make them on par with the existing Tank classes, which as seen in many other MMOs, leads to massive overscaling/underscaling and in some cases, breaks boss encounters.

Another reason I'm wary of giving certain Classes some of the Jobs found in previous titles, is the weapon they use. So far, all 9 Jobs continue to use the weapon the base class is built around, as well as the core spells/skills, even the SMN/SCH as you pointed out use the same spells when healing isn't intensive.
If a new Job's iconic weapon is NOT the same as the class it's coming from, Then how do you switch to it? Equip the weapon? But its the Soul Crystal giving the class the Job, So you equip the Crystal? Now the weapon is wrong!
Even the SCH can be a little weird in sub 30 Dungeons, they just become ACNs with a Fairy.
So this again limits which Jobs can be applied to existing classes, as we currently have no changes to equipable weapons when moving from Class to Job.
I do believe Yoshi at one stage pointed out that Classes were better suited to solo play with the wider cross class pool, where Jobs were more specialized and better utilized in organized play (Parties etc).

Jobs aren't actually any easier to create than Classes, because to create a new Job for an existing class, they would need to first pick a Job that is similar to the class it's coming from, modify all the existing skills for the new Role, then add new Job specific skills and then create a story for the Job to work through and gain its Job skills from.
From what I've seen of the Class/Job structure, the ACN was built from the ground up to have 2 Jobs. None of the other Classes were built that way. The CNJ is a prime example of that, given how many of the skills learned are straight up Healing spells.

I would very much like to see more multi-job classes, If only because i like variety.
But i do very much feel that any multi-job classes should be created new, from scratch, to be multi-job, the way the ACN was.

[Kitru]

But a Tank Job for PGLs? Please no! They would be required to either wear heavier gear (which goes directly against the PGL lore), or have weird percentile buffs to make them on par with the existing Tank classes, which as seen in many other MMOs, leads to massive overscaling/underscaling and in some cases, breaks boss encounters.

Actually, giving PGL a tank job wouldn't be too hard. There is a constant ratio between the defense of PLD/WAR gear and MNK gear: 1:1.9. It's not always *exact*, but it's close enough that it wouldn't matter. It, honestly, wouldn't be that hard to turn PGL into a tank: remove the positional requirements, add some high enmity additional effects, add a stance that increases defense and mdef by 90% and changes Greased Lightning to an evasion buff instead of a +dam buff (so that they get 22.5% +evasion and 22.5% less damage than they "should", which is a good balance against the 20% DR/dam debuff that PLD gets with Shield Oath), and you're most of the way there. All you'd really need to add would be a 30 sec off-GCD stun and a couple reliable tank CDs, all of which could be done through the job; it even has a decent "baseline" CD suite in Second Wind, Featherfoot, and Mantra. There's even a model job that's existed in other games that could be used *easily*: Berserker. In most of its iterations, it's an unarmed/fist weapon class with high evasion and a lot of durability. It even plays off of the "animal stance" thing that PGL already does. The only "weird" thing that you'd end up with is PGL gear having completely wrong itemization, though that could be solved by having crits increase parry chance or something similar so that you get some mitigation benefits from DPS gear.

Honestly, PGL could *easily* be given a tank job, more easily than LNC, imo, since LNC has a weird ratio on def/mdef compared to MAR/GLA (1.45 for def and 2.7 for mdef), though it does have the advantage of a lot of LNC gear having parry on it.

The hardest secondary jobs to add really are healers, mainly because you either have to have a heal naturally (like ACN does) or expect the class to bring in as an additional (which is possible; have CNJ or ACN as one of the requirement classes and build the job around them bringing Cure/Physick since they would *have* to have it; they already assume that WAR is going to bring a half of its CD suite from additionals). Turning a healer class into a DPS isn't *too* hard since you're just adding abilities that provide an interesting rotation through the job (CNJ gets 3 useful damage attacks and could add Thunder from THM; job adds 5 more, which would provide a full 9 attacks for the full DPS suite, which is pretty much what BLM relies upon). Tank into DPS just requires removing the enmity additional effects (which the devs have said that they're capable of doing) and providing some +dam (possibly something like adding a portion of Defense to STR or Detemination) and damage CDs to boost up. DPS into tank just doing the reverse of the tank to DPS: add enmity modifiers, a tank stance, and some tank CDs.

I don't think that a *lot* of new jobs should be added to the existing classes, mainly because people are already hitting 50 in multiple jobs and adding new jobs to existing classes would be giving them entirely new jobs that they'd be jumping into right off the bat. The first new jobs I expect to be brought in with entirely new classes with a few others added to current jobs that don't change the playstyle *too* much (tank job for PGL, DPS job for MAR, DPS for CNJ). I do expect them to start adding them reasonably quickly, mainly because tweaking leveling content when people aren't really going to be leveling much isn't really an efficient use of resources.

[Gamemako]

Actually, giving PGL a tank job wouldn't be too hard.

Evasion does not a tank make. You cannot RNG your tank into oblivion. To make PGL into a tank, you would need to increase HP by 150%, increase defense by 100% or increase eHP further to account for the reliable boost to burst damage. That's not touching the positioning issue, the enmity issue, or anything else obviously missing. PGL as tank will not happen, period.

Honestly, PGL could *easily* be given a tank job, more easily than LNC, imo, since LNC has a weird ratio on def/mdef compared to MAR/GLA (1.45 for def and 2.7 for mdef), though it does have the advantage of a lot of LNC gear having parry on it.

What kind of stats does this armor have? I'm pretty sure they're tank stats.

The hardest secondary jobs to add really are healers, mainly because you either have to have a heal naturally (like ACN does) or expect the class to bring in as an additional (which is possible; have CNJ or ACN as one of the requirement classes and build the job around them bringing Cure/Physick since they would *have* to have it; they already assume that WAR is going to bring a half of its CD suite from additionals).

The assumption of cross-class is already there for Protect. That's not really the problem. The problem is that for level 15 jobs, you have to do something to account for the ability to queue into 15-30 without proper abilities. SCH gives them all to the pet right off the bat for AoE heals, but for others, you'd have to make some concession for making it work.

a few others added to current jobs that don't change the playstyle *too* much (tank job for PGL)

The squishiest melee, numero uno of the dead-meat clan, and you really think it's going to be a tank? I'll tell you what. 10,000 gil. 10,000 gil bet.

[MartaDemireux]

Jobs aren't actually any easier to create than Classes, because to create a new Job for an existing class, they would need to first pick a Job that is similar to the class it's coming from, modify all the existing skills for the new Role, then add new Job specific skills and then create a story for the Job to work through and gain its Job skills from.

But they really really are easier.

New Job entails:
Creating 5 new abilities and their animations
Adjusting some class abilities (no need to modify all of them)
Create 5 quests and a storyline

New Class entails:
Creating a new weapon type which requires new base animations.
Creating 17-18 new abilities and their animations
Creating 1-2 new jobs (5-10 new abilities) and their animations
Balancing 11 new traits
Create 9-10 class quests and storyline
Create 5-10 job quests and 1-2 storylines

A new job does not need to be similar to the base class either. Again with ACN/SMN/SCH. The role they gave SCH is nothing like the role they gave ACN/SMN. They even changed SCH substantially from how it is in other titles in the series. It never once had pets/fairies and was only given healing magic roughly half of the time and even then rarely could function as the sole healer. They've usually been and played better as a debuffer or damage dealer (similar to how SMN is now). On that note, SMN also has taken an entirely different approach than it has in the series.

The assumption of cross-class is already there for Protect. That's not really the problem. The problem is that for level 15 jobs, you have to do something to account for the ability to queue into 15-30 without proper abilities. SCH gives them all to the pet right off the bat for AoE heals, but for others, you'd have to make some concession for making it work.

Jobs unlock at level 30. Even for jobs that are the same as their class if they sync down to 15 they are much less effective than if they were to go as their class. I joined my friend as a DRG in a low level instance only to notice I would have been much better off going LNC because the job abilities were locked out and I only had like 1 cross class available. As LNC I would have had 2 or 3 cross class abilities. Easy solution and one I can see them implementing is the inability to sync a job under level 30.

[Ehayte]

Evasion does not a tank make.[/i]

Passive evasion does not a tank make.

If you give them abilities to actively evade attacks, something like a 10s CD ability that will evade the next attack (100% chance) and a stance that must be upkept that reduces incoming damage by A LOT and reduces incoming healing by A LOT would do the trick. You just need to make their evasion very powerful and active, and have mistakes be absolutely damning. Note the operative word is "just". : D

Just saying its totally possible, you are making it seem way harder than it actually is.

My money is on SAM or Mystic Knight being the next tank though.

[Gamemako]

Even for jobs that are the same as their class if they sync down to 15 they are much less effective than if they were to go as their class... Easy solution and one I can see them implementing is the inability to sync a job under level 30.

You can bring a SCH to TTD and it will work out just fine. I have actually done so; you actually don't need to heal at all and can just sit around mashing DPS. However, other potential healers from non-healing classes might be fully unable to function at level 15, which means SE would have to actively prevent queuing as pre-30 for that job, something they have not previously needed to do.

Passive evasion does not a tank make.

A one-off 100% evasion ability would not be particularly useful because of autoattacks. You could do it with spells, but not melee, and all of the toughest opponents are melee attackers. Also, a stance that reduces incoming damage would extend eHP -- that would be addressing the problem how I said it would have to be addressed.

[Kitru]

To make PGL into a tank, you would need to increase HP by 150%, increase defense by 100% or increase eHP further to account for the reliable boost to burst damage. That's not touching the positioning issue, the enmity issue, or anything else obviously missing. PGL as tank will not happen, period.

As I said, you only have to increase def/mdef by 90% and the hp increase it would require would be nowhere *near* 150%. The only time you'd need any more hp than what you get on DPS gear would be at 50, when you start getting gear that's designed for specific classes and roles. Tank PGL gear would just have more Vit on it. There would be some issues with eHP for burst damage, but nowhere near insurmountable. The same 25% increase to hp that the WAR gets could be copied over since, honestly, it's not like there's a lot of options to increase eHP than DR and +hp.

The positioning, enmity, and "anything else obviously missing" (like... what? tank CDs? PGL already gets 3) aren't even really issues. The devs have explicitly said that they can change the secondary effects of abilities with job changes. All it would require would be removing the positional requirements (possibly swapping them over to form bonuses if it's absolutely necessary) and adding additional effect increased enmity (or just doing something like "increased enmity based upon your current form: Raptor x3, Coeurl x5" to keep with the 100%>300%>500% model that the other tanks use).

Seriously, PGL is nowhere near as insurmountable as you're making it out to be.

What kind of stats does this armor have? I'm pretty sure they're tank stats.

And those are actually pretty rare. As far as current gear is concerned, it's the exception, not the rule. Look at actual LNC/DRG gear. It's got the wonky def/mdef ratio that I was referring to. Unless you expect to devs to go through and add a whole new slew of LNC gear to 20-50 with tank stats for everything *except* for the 3-4 chest/head pieces that just so happen to have tank loadouts (because you're going to actually need tank gear to tank).

They could make a LNC tank job in multiple ways (simply allowing them to equip the WAR/PLD armor or going through and removing the LNC/DRG tag from the miniscule number of items that they can use atm and giving them a stance that increases def/mdef), but it requires just as much, if not more, work than what I suggested for PGL. You are *vastly* overestimating what it would require to get a PGL into a tank class. Hell, PGL actually has a better native CD suite than LNC does which gives them a leg up right off the bat.

The assumption of cross-class is already there for Protect. That's not really the problem. The problem is that for level 15 jobs, you have to do something to account for the ability to queue into 15-30 without proper abilities. SCH gives them all to the pet right off the bat for AoE heals, but for others, you'd have to make some concession for making it work.

You don't have to make a concession for anything for the 15-30 dungeons when they level sync down. Whispering Dawn has a 60 sec CD so it's nowhere *near* Medica on effectiveness. You can run all of those with just single target heals so it's not even an issue. The only thing you'd really have to do is order the job abilities properly, such that you get the AoE heal and big heal asap and a cleanse soon after.

The squishiest melee, numero uno of the dead-meat clan, and you really think it's going to be a tank?

Because, you know, the "squishiest melee", as you call it, (which isn't really; DRG takes only slightly less than MNK and DRG actually takes *more* because MNK has better mDef, which happens to be a majority of the AoE damage that goes out) would still stay squishy if given the proper tank changes. It would completely *impossible* to give them increased hp and a def/mdef multiplier to bring them up to what the existing tanks already get. If you actually look at the comparative loadouts that LNC and PGL get, PGL really does end up having a lot less that would need to be tacked on to make them as effective as the existing tanks:

LNC would require reworking or adding a large amount of gear thanks to existing inconsistencies.
LNC and PGL would both require tank stances, neither of which is particularly difficult to determine from a mathematical perspective.
LNC has a *much* weaker tank CD suite compared to PGL (Keen Flurry v. Featherfoot, Second Wind, Mantra) which means that more would have to be drawn from additionals or through the job itself.
LNC and PGL both have positional requirements that would have to be revised, not that it would be all that difficult to just remove the positional requirement and make the positional bonuses baseline.
LNC and PGL both have to have high enmity modifiers added, which is, once again, not a difficult prospect.

I'll tell you what. 10,000 gil. 10,000 gil bet.

10k gil is nothing so I'm not even sure what you were trying to say with that bet. Also, I never said that PGL would be guaranteed to get a tank job, simply that I believe that it would be much more likely to get one than LNC. If you want to make a bet that PGL will get a tank job before LNC, I'll take you up on that, mainly because I honestly think that they'll bring in a light armor tank before they bring in another heavy armor tank. The fact that, from a developmental standpoint, PGL also presents an easier target for "tankification" is just icing on the cake.