Enhancing sp gain: more than just chaining.

[Peregrine]

I think the devs have commented on looking into mob chaining, but how about other ways to earn bonus skill points? dps and grinding as fast as you can is often less impressive than using tactics and complex teamwork, so why not give sp bonuses for playing in a complex mode that earns more sp per hour than mindlessly grinding chains?

A. Sp bonus if a regimen is used in the fight. More sp for different jobs in that regimen. Max sp bonus if two kinds of meleers and a mage are in regimen.

B. Sp bonus for a diverse party. 3 different jobs for a light party. 5 different jobs for a full party.

C. Small sp bonuses for debilitations landed like disorients concussives dias and paralyze, up to 5.

D. Incapacitation bonuses.

E. Defined tank bonuses. There are ways to mathematically tell if you are using a tank and hate control or if you're just bouncing hate whereverwhocares. This would play well with the new hate meter. SP bonus if one person's hate is clearly rigged by the team on purpose.

I'd like to see a team actually train on a mob if they are grinding it, not just killing as fast as possible. Practically speaking, a pack of archers or meleers just mowing everything down doesn't learn anything from doing so. Giving sp bonus to fights in which conscious training actions are taking place would help solve the monotony of grinding sp and the insane focus on kills per minute to determine who is a good job.

[Micronowski]

That's actually not a bad idea, maybe make the fights last longer too. Enemies seem to die in 2 seconds when I'm in a party, it'd be nice if fights lasted as long as they did in XI. Back in the day the only way to level effectively was to get a good light SC going so coordinating that was something you had to do.

[Shyd]

Shyd approves! (b'.')b

I like this idea. Makes me think of RPG games as of late that you get AP points for doing actions in battle, 1 points per action, which made you want to do several moves prior to actually defeating the monster.

[Rentahamster]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-How-to-Fix-it

I detailed a bunch of suggestions in a prior "how to fix SP" thread, but in the area of chaining, specifically, I think certain mini-objectives that can be achieve during each battle would help to make things interesting.

FF10 had the concept of "overkill" which was kinda neat. Perhaps if a similar mechanic could be worked into FF14's battle system for SP bonus, that might be interesting. SP bonus for incapacitating parts, or SP bonus for regimens, etc.

[Peregrine]

I almost included overkill, but think that would play too hard into certain jobs' inherent abilities and make the end of fights more painful than they're worth. WAIT STOP HITTING IT SO WE CAN I SAID STOP HITTING IT!

Can't think of a way to do overkill well.

Added incapacitations. How could i miss that lol

[Physic]

you know..... the old SP system had some of this stuff built in.
tanks got extra sp for tanking well, because you got sp for parries, and for blocking
You got extra SP for debilitating the monsters, so Weaponskills that did damage and debilitated, gave double bonuses.
you got SP for amount of hp cured, and for removing statuses.
incapacitations also counted as debuff pocs, but were gerenerally higher reward
regimens could reduce monster defenses, and do damage bursts, that allowed you to do more damage to harder monsters, which meant your sp reward scale was much higher (doing 100 damage on a higher level mob gave much more exp than doing 100 damage on a lower one.


main problem, is, people didnt share these exp benefits.

I think most of these bonuses are a good idea (dunno about the bonus for having one person with hate though, certain teams could be trying to bounce hate for more effeciency, and it actually be a more difficult task.), and with a base exp set in place and sharing of the bonuses, it allows you to go for mass murder, or difficult rewarding longer fights, depending on your playstyle. only problem is, will it be more exp than mass murder, or the same in a different way, and then trying to balance that into play.

[Peregrine]

I agree that this is what tanaka was going for--to end the monotonous, simplistic grind that FFXI devolved into. In mass murder, nothing is learned. In fact, things are forgotten. In FFXI we used to set up intricate hate controle formations and do full skillchains, maybe even two-part skillchains. All of that lost over time. Dead art.

He just didn't go about putting thoughtful training into the grind in a practical way. All of Tanaka's ideas are gold. Sometimes he just has no clue how to do it and assumes he does.

You used to get pretty epic sp for debilitations, but you couldn't rely on it. By the time the system was changed, battle regimens didn't even pick up. I wonder if regimens used to give you epic sp too and we just never knew it.

Even if Tanaka was secretly right, you can't just tell everyone to shut up and listen. It has to be obviously beneficial. You have to make it perfectly clear what you're telling the players to start doing, and not do. He was trying to say don't just archerburn everything down, but he hid it in an overly complicated system that no one understood but him.

[Rentahamster]

You used to get pretty epic sp for debilitations, but you couldn't rely on it.

All this encouraged was for everyone to equip their WS that proced a status on hit and for everyone to spam it, regardless if it was worth it or not (and you had to be first, since overwriting a debuff does not give you SP).

By the time the system was changed, battle regimens didn't even pick up. I wonder if regimens used to give you epic sp too and we just never knew it.

They didn't give extra SP.

The reason regimens didn't pick up was because they just plain didn't work 80% of the time even if you did the process correctly. It wasn't until the Nov 24 patch that battle regimens actually started to activate correctly.

Even then (and still now) battle regimens were not worth doing in small parties, and the benefits did not outweigh the drawbacks enough.

[Physic]

All this encouraged was for everyone to equip their WS that proced a status on hit and for everyone to spam it, regardless if it was worth it or not (and you had to be first, since overwriting a debuff does not give you SP).


They didn't give extra SP.

The reason regimens didn't pick up was because they just plain didn't work 80% of the time even if you did the process correctly. It wasn't until the Nov 24 patch that battle regimens actually started to activate correctly.

Even then (and still now) battle regimens were not worth doing in small parties, and the benefits did not outweigh the drawbacks enough.

Uhhh maybe only mines overwrote then because i got procs for skull sunder and concussive blow multiple times, maybe concussive and skull sunder are different because they overwrite the effect. And yeah, different status effects had different values, the ones i used were worth it. Concussive blow progressively lowers accuracy, and allows your tank, even gladiators/marauders to evade more. skull sunder is doing DoT, if it didnt give sp, it would be a lie, saying it had no value. The truth is debuffs are actually useful to the party, some more than others, that probably why some gave more than others. Also in this game, the WS with debuffs, are usually more than worth it, their damage is good and they do something useful, thats probably why many of them have timers.

Another thing is even if only the first person got the credit, that wouldnt matter much if everyone shared the exp, or it was something that they gave bonuses to the whole party. Maybe the problem was that he was trying to kill 2 birds with one stone, rewarding skillful play, but at the same time reducing the ability to leech/plevel people. reducing the leech/plevel aspect by not sharing sp to the whole party may have been the bigger flaw.

I can tell you right now that using the defense down debuff on high level crabs gave you more exp per proc, and allowed you to kill them faster, the problem was, as you say getting regimens to actually work consistently before was pretty hard. The only way we could consistently get the effect was to have 3 people queue up, and then one person wouldnt be counted.

Basically anything that increased the damage you do to the mob, was increasing your sp gains, most noticeably on high level monster

[Rentahamster]

Uhhh maybe only mines overwrote then because i got procs for skull sunder and concussive blow multiple times, maybe concussive and skull sunder are different because they overwrite the effect.

Nope, proccing skull sunder while the mob was already under the effects of skull sunder does not give you proc SP, only damage SP.

Concussive Blow x2 and x3 did not award SP for the status proc, and neither did Disorient x2 or Disorient x3. It wasn't worth using after the first one hit.

Basically anything that increased the damage you do to the mob, was increasing your sp gains, most noticeably on high level monster

It wasn't a 1:1 proportion of damage to SP. The harder you hit, the more SP you got per hit, but if you killed the mob too fast, you won't have enough total hits to average out the randomness, so you might get less SP overall. On the other hand, you could hit many times for less damage, and get enough total hits to accumulate SP despite the randomness, but have the fight drag out. When individuals in parties had both methods of play in the same party, problems occurred.