Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

[Cairdeas]

Correct me if I am wrong but the current system already allows for a mish mash or everything and you can be a pug with fists and still tank or gimp heal if you wanted to? I don't understand why create an open system to an open system. The reason SE is adding the job/role/specialization system is to give us the player a direction of what we want to do in a party setting, because with the current system people cannot already figure it out.

We asked for the game to be open and allow freedom . . . . the game comes out

players complain there is no focus and said give us roles, because we cannot decide it for ourselves.. . . .

now that is exactly what yoshi and SE are doing and now people are saying no I want the freedom back?

I understand from what yoshi said and I am going to quote him

A number of plans made at the beginning of the year will soon be ripe for release. Among these are the shiny new job system (a proper system, mind you, not just renamed classes)

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11012

Just in case someone cries foul. This is an entire new system meant to pull from what is currently there. This means or at least I understand it and from what matsui said in his piece changes are coming that will tie us the player to the class we are going to be playing

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...form-Blueprint


so it seems to me with the battle system there will be rigidities built into place forcing the player into roles, classes, and jobs. All of which at all times are not always interchangeable.

So Cairderas I don't think what you are asking for is going to happen. From my reading and understanding it seems we will be locked in some ways based on skills and weapon would be my guess.

From how I understand it though all job does is define the actions you get from the job itself and what skills from outside of those you can equip as well.

IE a White mage can not equip Black magic.

This defines a Role. "White Mage" is a healer they only have access to the Actions of a healer.

If this is the case this doesn't mean they have to be limited to the weapons of conjurer because Conjurer itself doesn't define or have the role of Healer, it can perform it but that isn't its purpose. It also would be unfair of White Mage not being able to be equipped to Thaumaturge, another Caster class. Or to Enforcer (When it comes out) a Hammer Wielding class that as Hammers are White Mages "Traditional" weapon, not their only, just their traditional.


Same for Red Mage. it is unfair for a Redmage to only be Conjurer because thats the best fit for its weapon class based on the skills conjurer teaches you when Red Mage's traditional weapon is a Fencing Foil (Fencer) But if Fencer is implemented and Redmage is locked to Fencer only then Red Mage loses the ability to cast AOE spells.

[Sorel]

In my view, White Mage HAS to be tied to Conjurer because it's using the healing/buffing spells of Conjurer (Cure, Protect, Stoneskin, etc ...) and enhancing them/adding new tiers. It is a job, but only a specialisation from the Conjurer class. Any other class can still equip magics from Conjurer, but won't get access to the elite spells of Conjurer that are WHM or BLM only.

OK. But in that scenario how would a player with the White Mage Job equip Banish and Dia ... and how effective would they be since they would be cross-classed from Thaumaturge?

[Cairdeas]

That's where the misunderstanding about this occurs since we have different views of jobs.

In my view, White Mage HAS to be tied to Conjurer because it's using the healing/buffing spells of Conjurer (Cure, Protect, Stoneskin, etc ...) and enhancing them/adding new tiers. It is a job, but only a specialisation from the Conjurer class. Any other class can still equip magics from Conjurer, but won't get access to the elite spells of Conjurer that are WHM or BLM only.

In your view, White Mage only gives access to new skills, can be separated from the healing side of Conjurer and apllied to any class.

We'll have to wait and see.

No, In my view no matter what you do. No matter what weapon you equip. a White Mage will always be a White Mage and a Healer. They will always have access to the Job Actions it has, and the class and cross class skills that define White Mage. Even if your Class is Marauder you'll have access only to the skills from ALL classes that define a White Mage. Not all of White Mages actions are on Conjurer. At that point It doesn't matter what Weapon you equip except to define your stats, and how you want to deal damage/healing. Its best choices? Conjurer or Thaumaturge for the AOE they can cast. Unless of course White Mage gets access to Curaga on its own that only it can use even if its weapon is for instance an Axe. If thats the case it really doesn't matter what weapon you chose except for your stats, and even then you can counter any deficits with stat assignments and equipment.

[Chinook]

OK. But in that scenario how would a player with the White Mage Job equip Banish and Dia ... and how effective would they be since they would be cross-classed from Thaumaturge?

Quoting Matsuki:

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

Clearly, we might see some skills change class. Or these spells won't be White Mage (got to think outside the box, who would have thought Dragoon could have wyvern pets before XI ?). Or ... anything can happen.

[Speeral]

From how I understand it though all job does is define the actions you get from the job itself and what skills from outside of those you can equip as well.

IE a White mage can not equip Black magic.

This defines a Role. "White Mage" is a healer they only have access to the Actions of a healer.

If this is the case this doesn't mean they have to be limited to the weapons of conjurer because Conjurer itself doesn't define or have the role of Healer, it can perform it but that isn't its purpose. It also would be unfair of White Mage not being able to be equipped to Thaumaturge, another Caster class. Or to Enforcer (When it comes out) a Hammer Wielding class that as Hammers are White Mages "Traditional" weapon, not their only, just their traditional.


Same for Red Mage. it is unfair for a Redmage to only be Conjurer because thats the best fit for its weapon class based on the skills conjurer teaches you when Red Mage's traditional weapon is a Fencing Foil (Fencer) But if Fencer is implemented and Redmage is locked to Fencer only then Red Mage loses the ability to cast AOE spells.

I don't think personally its a fairness issue here its about balance and creating a bit or rigidity into a fluid system. The game as it is has no defined role but weapon based classes. So if you want to use an axe you're a marauder no ands ifs or buts . . .

so if a "job" is open based on one class, then realistically according to my understanding of the proposed system I will be tied to that weapon based on the job and class. Now if they are taking a bit from XI and allowing jobs to have access to other weapons and adding proficiency affinity based on a scale to how relevant or capable the job is to the weapon then I can see your ideas working.

Case in point Monk or blm and whm.

In xi monk, blm, whm could in their own right interchange weapons I.e. monk used baghknaks, polearm, fists, and a club but was proficient in fist type weapons and were most effective then for their role.

BLM had access to scythe but didn't have the stats and proficiency behind it to allow it to be a viable use, but mainly used for aesthetics.

If that's the case then fine I agree that would be a nice addition. but having a paladin with a bow even in xi was kinda dumb imho. As long as it makes sense and there are avenue for customization then I don't mind seeing how it will turn out.

I personally for parties would like to see some restrictions in a few ways but that is a different thought for a different conversation.

[Cairdeas]

I don't think personally its a fairness issue here its about balance and creating a bit or rigidity into a fluid system. The game as it is has no defined role but weapon based classes. So if you want to use an axe you're a marauder no ands ifs or buts . . .

so if a "job" is open based on one class, then realistically according to my understanding of the proposed system I will be tied to that weapon based on the job and class. Now if they are taking a bit from XI and allowing jobs to have access to other weapons and adding proficiency affinity based on a scale to how relevant or capable the job is to the weapon then I can see your ideas working.

Case in point Monk or blm and whm.

In xi monk, blm, whm could in their own right interchange weapons I.e. monk used baghknaks, polearm, fists, and a club but was proficient in fist type weapons and were most effective then for their role.

BLM had access to scythe but didn't have the stats and proficiency behind it to allow it to be a viable use, but mainly used for aesthetics.

If that's the case then fine I agree that would be a nice addition. but having a paladin with a bow even in xi was kinda dumb imho. As long as it makes sense and there are avenue for customization then I don't mind seeing how it will turn out.

I personally for parties would like to see some restrictions in a few ways but that is a different thought for a different conversation.

In a Party those restrictions should be done by the Party Leader through Party Consensus. If a player shows up out of spec for the Role they are hired on for, then you kick them.

[Speeral]

Then what would be the point of using multiple weapons as a job? because then the whole cookie cutter argument will come up again. This so far seems like its overly confusing than it should be now.

[Sorel]

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

Clearly, we might see some skills change class. Or these spells won't be White Mage (got to think outside the box, who would have thought Dragoon could have wyvern pets before XI ?). Or ... anything can happen.

Very true. Anything can happen.

But it's starting to sound like there may be some wiggle room between yourself and the argument you are making. If you will allow me, I would like to get back to that argument.

In my view, White Mage HAS to be tied to Conjurer because it's using the healing/buffing spells of Conjurer (Cure, Protect, Stoneskin, etc ...) and enhancing them/adding new tiers. It is a job, but only a specialisation from the Conjurer class. Any other class can still equip magics from Conjurer, but won't get access to the elite spells of Conjurer that are WHM or BLM only.

To which I asked ...

OK. But in that scenario how would a player with the White Mage Job equip Banish and Dia ... and how effective would they be since they would be cross-classed from Thaumaturge?

To which you responded with the Matsui quote at the top.

Now I don't want to put words in your mouth. But by using the Matsui quote, I get the impression that you may think that it is possible the Development Team would move the Astral abilities that Thaumaturge currently have to Conjurer instead ... so that a White Mage (who from your scenario MUST be a Conjurer) can get full-powered Banish and Dia abilities. This is very possible.

But that would also mean moving the Conjurer Umbral abilities to Thaumaturge so that the Black Mage Job can have a full-powered Sleep ability. That is assuming that we would only want Thaumaturges to be Black Mages, right? Because we are only wanting Conjurers to be White Mages, correct?

But then, if only Thaumaturges can be Black Mages, Black Mages would not have full powered Elemental spells, because they are all still assigned to Conjurers. This makes it possible for a Conjurer (class) to out-nuke a Black Mage (job) because we forced all Black Mages to be Thaumaturges. I guess the Development Team could move all the Elemental spells to Thaumaturge to fix that. Of course, that would break all the lore behind Conjurer and their abilities to begin with.

Then there's Red Mage ... <sigh> ... I'm just not going to go there this post. Use your imagination.

But I do hope you see my point, even if you do not agree with me. Any restrictions to what Class can be what Job creates balance issues, that the Development Team would have to address immediately and broadly, and may make even less sense than just simply allowing any Class to play as any unlocked Job.

[Arcell]

You have Musketeer branching off from Archer and Arcanist branching off from Thaumaturge. That doesn't make any sense. Those are classes, not jobs, they even have their class guilds already in LL. Musketeer is someone who uses muskets or guns how is that a specialization of an archer?

Not to mention Ranger is listed as elemental and Musketeer is listed as disabling parts while traditionally those roles are actually switched.

But yeah Arcanist and Musketeer are classes not jobs. While they'll be adding in the job system I'm sure we'll continue seeing more base classes in the future.

[Cairdeas]

Every Weapon is a Class so yes we'll see more classes. Specifically I'm hoping for

Tachi - Vagrant
Whip - Flayer
Slingshot - Mimic
WarScyth - Corrupter
Bludgeons - Enforcer
Hand Axe - Shepard
Great Sword - Soldier

and a few others.