Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

[Taemek]

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but its kind of obvious that the other tank can't pull threat off you when you're packing 4 more DPS accessories, a helmet that is 35 ilvls higher, and gloves melded with DPS materia.

In other words, your anecdote doesn't prove that WARs deal 20-40% more damage than PLDs. Your anecdote proves that your WAR and your gear allows you to deal 20-40% more damage than the PLD and his gear.

I'm speechless, literally.

First the argument was that Shield Oath out DPS's Defiance stance - proved wrong, now, the PLD has to be in DPS gear while tanking in Shield Oath for a comparison.

Yeah..........truth is you guys are grasping at straws now days and the fact remains that Warriors out DPS PLD's by a considerable margin, end of story.

[Kitru]

Yeah..........truth is you guys are grasping at straws now days and the fact remains that Warriors out DPS PLD's by a considerable margin, end of story.

Honestly, I've got no idea what *you're* talking about and bringing up the comparison with a single tank that you already know that you can regularly pull off of because you outgear him doesn't really say much. While in Shield Oath, using a relic weapon and a mix of AK and DL gear, I've pulled threat off of a full DK PLD with relic +1. While it's pretty hard to screw up RoH, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people end up doing just that, whether by not using FoF, CoS, and SW like they should be or leaving gaps in between attacks rather than queueing up a new attack right before the reset timer finishes.

I've pulled off of WARs in better gear on my PLD and pulled off of PLDs in better gear on my WAR. I've done the same when I'm playing the same class as the other tank. I've had to restrain myself when running with pretty much every tank I've ever paired up with because I know exactly how to maximize my damage and enmity generation and a lot of people *don't*, even when they're supposedly amazing tanks that have never had enmity problems before (and, yes, I've run with FCs that say that their tank's enmity is amazing only to find out that they get completely bowled over by me).

Using your single data point means absolutely nothing. Half of the PLD DPS parses that I've seen mean nothing either because there are a *lot* of PLDs that are completely and utterly incompetent yet still progress because doing the absolute minimum to progress while playing a PLD is remarkably simple. When parses start existing that don't suck massively and we start collecting data points from similar skilled and geared PLDs and WARs, the question of practice v. theory will be answered but, having played both a prolific amount with numerous other tanks and solo as well, I haven't noticed *any* kind of evidence that suggests appreciable deviation from the theory, assuming that the PLD isn't just facerolling their way to victory.

[Taemek]

Honestly, I've got no idea what *you're* talking about and bringing up the comparison with a single tank that you already know that you can regularly pull off of because you outgear him doesn't really say much. While in Shield Oath, using a relic weapon and a mix of AK and DL gear, I've pulled threat off of a full DK PLD with relic +1. While it's pretty hard to screw up RoH, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people end up doing just that, whether by not using FoF, CoS, and SW like they should be or leaving gaps in between attacks rather than queueing up a new attack right before the reset timer finishes.

I've pulled off of WARs in better gear on my PLD and pulled off of PLDs in better gear on my WAR. I've done the same when I'm playing the same class as the other tank. I've had to restrain myself when running with pretty much every tank I've ever paired up with because I know exactly how to maximize my damage and enmity generation and a lot of people *don't*, even when they're supposedly amazing tanks that have never had enmity problems before (and, yes, I've run with FCs that say that their tank's enmity is amazing only to find out that they get completely bowled over by me).

Using your single data point means absolutely nothing. Half of the PLD DPS parses that I've seen mean nothing either because there are a *lot* of PLDs that are completely and utterly incompetent yet still progress because doing the absolute minimum to progress while playing a PLD is remarkably simple. When parses start existing that don't suck massively and we start collecting data points from similar skilled and geared PLDs and WARs, the question of practice v. theory will be answered but, having played both a prolific amount with numerous other tanks and solo as well, I haven't noticed *any* kind of evidence that suggests appreciable deviation from the theory, assuming that the PLD isn't just facerolling their way to victory.

So show us some parses that you deem to be worthy of acceptance to the overall community so we can subject it too further evaluation and criticism or are you still having trouble understanding? We need a standard to begin to work from, what say you Kitru, show us your DPS on both your PLD and Warrior so we can begin.

I mean seriously, if there is any place better to flash your epeen, I figured it would be here on the forums with parses to support your eclaim, right? Yet I see nothing.....

[CurlyBruce]

Warrior seems like a clunky class at the beginning, but once you realize that you don't have to be planted and are just as mobile as any other class, there isn't much of an issue.

What does mobility have anything to do with WAR not being able to tank 4 Stack Dread or Double Dread in Turn 4? The issue is that WAR straight up can't handle large amounts of damage before being able to heal itself up or have the healers top it off. That is the only issue. Brutal Swing animation isn't anything specific to WAR, it applies to all classes and any ability that has an immediate effect but stupidly long animation (see: Hallowed Ground, Benediction, Leg Sweep, Spirit's Within for silence, etc.)

So show us some parses that you deem to be worthy of acceptance to the overall community so we can subject it too further evaluation and criticism or are you still having trouble understanding?

You do realize the same could be said for you right? I haven't seen you provide any evidence to support your claim that WAR is superior in DPS to PLD. Instead of brushing off Kitru's math with burden of proof bull crap how about you show your own math or parses.

[Taemek]

What does mobility have anything to do with WAR not being able to tank 4 Stack Dread or Double Dread in Turn 4? The issue is that WAR straight up can't handle large amounts of damage before being able to heal itself up or have the healers top it off. That is the only issue. Brutal Swing animation isn't anything specific to WAR, it applies to all classes and any ability that has an immediate effect but stupidly long animation (see: Hallowed Ground, Benediction, Leg Sweep, Spirit's Within for silence, etc.)

Peoples reading comprehension disabilities always make people chuckle, now next time, when you read something, let it sink in. I assume you either read my entire post as you quoted the last paragraph OR skipped to the last paragraph and missed the part where I was talking about the long animation on Brutal Swing.

Either way, GJ......

You do realize the same could be said for you right? I haven't seen you provide any evidence to support your claim that WAR is superior in DPS to PLD. Instead of brushing off Kitru's math with burden of proof bull crap how about you show your own math or parses.

I do love a good Ninja edit. We have already played this game months ago and I can't be bothered doing it again with the ilk of yourself.

How about you put your money where your mouth us and show us some parses?

I seem to be rubbing nerves raw with the request of real time parses, I wonder why this is?

[Kitru]

I seem to be rubbing nerves raw with the request of real time parses, I wonder why this is?

Mainly because you're being massively hypocritical. Apparently *we* need parses to prove what the theory that's based upon the fundamental math that the game is based upon and has been refined time and time again, but you don't need them to prove your largely unsupported anecdotal evidence that is regularly contradicted by other people's anecdotal evidence.

You seem to be unable to grasp the whole concept of "burden of proof". We've already brought proof in the form of theory to support our claims and anecdotal evidence. If you want to step it up, *you're* supposed to be the one to either match or exceed the quality of evidence (and be ready to have it be publicly vetted since, if you continue to bring up evidence of unequal comparison, you're not really looking to prove anything except the fact that a strong tank can generate more enmity than a weak tank or that a tank optimized for enmity generation can pulled aggro off of a tank optimized for survivability).

[Kitru]

So show us some parses that you deem to be worthy of acceptance to the overall community so we can subject it too further evaluation and criticism or are you still having trouble understanding?

I've yet to see a parser for this game that isn't painfully unreliable. Decent peripherals just don't exist as far as I've been able to gather, which is the source of most of these problems. There are a tiny smattering of data points, provided mostly by WARs stroking their own epeens by comparing themselves to the PLDs that they regularly rip enmity off of already (and, btw, my math actually indicates that a WAR *should* be ripping enmity off of a PLD since they *do* have an enmity advantage; the point is that the DPS difference is so small that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things). Find a PLD that runs with WARs and regularly rips enmity off of them and compare yourself to that one. If you think you're a heavyweight, don't compare yourself to a middleweight and declare yourself innately superior.

I mean seriously, if there is any place better to flash your epeen, I figured it would be here on the forums with parses to support your eclaim, right? Yet I see nothing.....

I've already shown evidence that PLD and WAR have no appreciable DPS differences when geared similarly and played optimally. It's up to you to discredit my theory by actually putting out some parses with competent people that aren't regularly overtaken by people that overgear them. I'm not here to flash epeen (which you seem to be, based upon your answers). I'm here to actually suss out the truth. If you want to discredit me, it's up to you and I haven't seen you actually put out anything resembling a controlled comparison of the two since the best you can manage is two tanks in unequal gear played by people of obviously unequal skill. Try controlling some variables before saying that you've disproven me.

[Taemek]

I've yet to see a parser for this game that isn't painfully unreliable........

LOL, sigh, yes Kitru, we know......../faceplam

[astrobear]

LOL, sigh, yes Kitru, we know......../faceplam

oh my god...its this dude again....AND LOL i see you "found" your secret WAR alt (and by found i mean you quickly level one up.)


edit


guys, taemek is a well known troll that who has absolutely zero idea what he is talking about when it comes to WAR tank.

[Eardstapa]

oh my god...its this dude again....AND LOL i see you "found" your secret WAR alt (and by found i mean you quickly level one up.)


edit


guys, taemek is a well known troll that who has absolutely zero idea what he is talking about when it comes to WAR tank.

MoneyPenguin, is that you?

On topic... We are still not aware of what they intend to change. Will it be drastic? Will it be slight? We'll find out. WAR is a job that I feel plays well with communication, with little to none, PLD is of course easier due to -20% in Shield Oath. We all need to get along anyway... Hostility, trolling and claims of being the greatest and everyone else having no idea what they are doing do not help us at all. We all truly need to get our crap together and put some real tests in to see why Yoshi-P originally said WAR is fine... What are we missing that we have not tried? And then from there, maybe we'll have an idea of what we are getting in December...

EDIT: Found Taemek's Alt by the way; http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1425543/