Monks very weak. Need rebalance

[neoreturn]

MNK players have a higher ratio of being bad because the job itself it seems is too difficult for a lot of people. Yes, every job can have a shitty player behind it. Problem is, MNK DPS varies the most based on player skill...

You have very wrong logical thinking. Pug doesn't mean bad. You think you are good MNK? you to me is a pug. Even i know you good, i am not inviting you for coil t4. Any pug can be good or bad to any class. MNK just don't bring any thing to team. Your DPS are on top is nothing when you are only few percentage higher. Do you know what's mean value and what is stand deviation? MNK DPS mean value in all population is in the middle of other dps class but stand deviation is high. So there is no point to pick MNK over others when MNK can't do this, can't do that with few percentage high in DPS if did good job.

[NoctisUmbra]

You have very wrong logical thinking. Pug doesn't mean bad. You think you are good MNK? you to me is a pug. Even i know you good, i am not inviting you for coil t4. Any pug can be good or bad to any class. MNK just don't bring any thing to team. Your DPS are on top is nothing when you are only few percentage higher. Do you know what's mean value and what is stand deviation? MNK DPS mean value in all population is in the middle of other dps class but stand deviation is high. So there is no point to pick MNK over others when MNK can't do this, can't do that with few percentage high in DPS if did good job.

Don't think you understand what I'm saying. English also doesn't appear to be your first language, and thus I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you're saying here. That being said...

DPS is of the most significance when it comes to a DPS job. Beyond the various flavors of support each DPS job can bring to specific content, your primary job is DPS. Higher DPS is therefore desirable.

I am not saying PUG is bad as a whole. I'm saying results from PUGs are a bad measure of how good a job is. I am suggesting that bad MNKs perform far worse than bad BLMs, BRDs, DRGs and perhaps even SMNs. On the flipside, when played right they outperform them all.

I do coil turn 4 on MNK. I have a reasonably geared BLM and BRD as well. Both very popular options for turn 4 due to it being safer for the various mechanics. Why does my FC ask me to come on my MNK then? Simple. Because it makes a significant impact on how fast select targets, such as the dreadnaughts and rooks go down.

Again, I don't doubt that by some mean value MNK DPS is in the middle. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with the job. That just means there is a very large variance in DPS based on player performance when it comes to MNK. This is expected. The devs wouldn't be able to design a job that does such a significant amount of DPS higher than other jobs when played optimally if they didn't make it a high risk - high reward type job where mistakes are very costly.

[pandabearcat]

What he means is, basically what everyone is arguing is whether people will pick monk for coil, or whatever high end raiding.

He says, say you know you are the best monk ever, or whatever, or in the top percentile, you are a pug in his eyes, because he has to decide who to fill for that spot, and he doesn't know "you".

What he is saying is, as a raid leader, even if monks do parse at the top "on average", he has no way of verifying your personal skill, and as monks have themselves said, the variation in skill to dps ratio (aka the standard deviation that he is saying), is so high, he has a higher chance of finding you as a worse monk, than say, a bard who does on average less dps but has almost no variability because bards are pretty simple to play.

And I agree with that.

Because monks bring no utility that other classes don't, aside from mantra, and I don't know the value of mantra to the raid.

[NoctisUmbra]

What he means is, basically what everyone is arguing is whether people will pick monk for coil, or whatever high end raiding.

He says, say you know you are the best monk ever, or whatever, or in the top percentile, you are a pug in his eyes, because he has to decide who to fill for that spot, and he doesn't know "you".

What he is saying is, as a raid leader, even if monks do parse at the top "on average", he has no way of verifying your personal skill, and as monks have themselves said, the variation in skill to dps ratio (aka the standard deviation that he is saying), is so high, he has a higher chance of finding you as a worse monk, than say, a bard who does on average less dps but has almost no variability because bards are pretty simple to play.

And I agree with that.

Because monks bring no utility that other classes don't, aside from mantra, and I don't know the value of mantra to the raid.

Mantra is a drastic boost to raid healing. Also top DPS in itself is a unique utility.

Another utility is it is the only job with a silence skill on GCD instead of a long CD. Some groups prefer to use a MNK to solo silence ADS for example.

That all being said, I'm definitely not agreeing that picking a MNK you don't know is risky. That's what I've been suggesting all along.

However, this thread is about the job itself. The job is not weak, and thus requires no adjustments.

[Rochetm]

Because monks bring no utility that other classes don't, aside from mantra, and I don't know the value of mantra to the raid.

Mantra is a very good ability. It can be used as a tank cooldown or a raid cooldown. However with all the other stuff going on Monk really needs to be good to be able to use it at the right times. From my experience most monks never use it.

[Ryutamashiisan]

Sigh.. Monk, is NOT at all close to being weak. Monk is dangerously close to being OP, MNK does NOT need a buff other then Greased lightning extension. MNK has the highest skill requirement of every DPS in the game, and to be perfectly honest, most people are simply not up to snuff. As a Monk you have to be able to adjust to situations quicker then other DPS, If you are in the middle of a combo and the mob turns you have to change your combo to that situation in the second. The only time this is not the case is when you use demolish or true strike. And honestly most people cannot

[Ryutamashiisan]

A very large amount of Monks do not use fracture at all or use impulse drive correctly. Many Monks apply there DoT's every other combo which severely cripples your DPS, where as the appropriate time to DoT UP is when you have BFB and/OR IR ready and your apply them AFTER you freshly apply dragon kick and twin snakes, where as so many monks apply there after a Bootshine combo. I could go on an on about how to correctly MNK vs the silly things most people do when playing mnk which results in terrible dps. Granted MNK does not have great team utility in end game such as coil, however when you are busy out-damaging every other DPS by several K, its a pretty fair trade. ALthough Mantra is VERY useful in coil, you just pop it on your tank between rotations like any other NON-GCD like Steel Peak or Howling Fist.

TL;DR If you think MNK is weak, L2P or pick a new class, your making us look bad.

[pandabearcat]

snip

1. Noone (noone reasonable) is saying monk is "bad" but that they provide no reason to take them over any other dps. Mantra's utility is questionable, but I have not done Coil so I can't speak to this.
2. AFAIK DK does not affect any DoTs. Furthermore, not sure if it affects ID either, as that is a borrowed skill from DRG and should be under piercing.
3. ID is NEVER more efficient than BS > True > SP, thus if TP is an issue, ID should not be on your bars (perhaps during BFB/IR, it is worth as a filler).
4. FR is also iffy, but more efficient than ID...barely.

[NoctisUmbra]

1. Noone (noone reasonable) is saying monk is "bad" but that they provide no reason to take them over any other dps. Mantra's utility is questionable, but I have not done Coil so I can't speak to this.
2. AFAIK DK does not affect any DoTs. Furthermore, not sure if it affects ID either, as that is a borrowed skill from DRG and should be under piercing.
3. ID is NEVER more efficient than BS > True > SP, thus if TP is an issue, ID should not be on your bars (perhaps during BFB/IR, it is worth as a filler).
4. FR is also iffy, but more efficient than ID...barely.

1. MNK brings superior DPS. Superior DPS is, in fact, its own utility to the party. It is also one of 2 jobs with the single target Limit Break, the other one being rather low on the DPS spectrum and requiring a couple or more BRDs to be in the same party to provide a worthwhile net DPS gain. Superior DPS matters in Coil. Mantra is a very effective boon in Coil.

2. DK does not effect DoTs. This is correct. Damage type is weapon based. Cross classing skills would not be as viable if the source class' weapon damage type mattered.

3. ID will result in a net DPS increase if used properly - that is without allowing TwS, DK or GL3 to drop. It is, however, very inefficient in terms of TP. While this is a good reason to keep it out of a typical rotation, it is also very handy for specific burn phases in content where TP is determined to not be an issue.

4. Fracture is similar to ID, but to a lesser degree like you suggest.

[pandabearcat]

I don't see monks doing higher dps than drg in my sim.

Please check the given rotation and let me know if there are glaring flaws in the rotation!