Monk- general discussion and feedback

[Cynric]

Well not to burst your bubble DerpyCubone, but Monk isn't meant to solo. Pugilist is. All jobs are meant to be played inside groups, all classes are meant to be played solo.
If you go Pugilist? Suddenly you have more damage mitigation, healing, etc. available from cross class skills. As far as just talking about the job though I'll do you one better.


Solo Monk can survive well using bloodbath, feather foot, Second Wind, Fists of earth, Stuns, and silences. Even when I was soloing up through the content I never needed more than a single Second Wind and a feather foot to survive.

We have positioning but this also is something a solo dragoon has to deal with too.

Now if you want to talk damage wise, eh it gets a bit harder to do maximum damage as a monk solo or Pugilist, but solo you don't need your maximum damage to kill the monsters relatively fast, they are much weaker than their dungeon counterparts, and in solo instances usually second wind is all the healing you need.(Especially since they changed how second wind healing worked).

Just like Dragoon you CAN get the position bonuses if you're good enough, but melees will never have the same kind of solo potential pet classes or ranged classes have. It's pretty much like this in any RPG, not just MMO's.

Now after you're geared up in even just iLVL 55-60 gear, solo content becomes a joke with every class currently.

You also have to understand that if Monk is currently very powerful in team content, and he were to get buffed to be a better solo character, he'd still get buffed in said group content.

If I were to make any kind of change to how a Monk could solo better, I'd give the job a weak ranged attack. It's really the only issue you'd have solo. You see 6 monsters all aggressive , you need them for hunting log, you have to basically stealth until only one sees you to get a one on one fight.

[HorrorStory]

I'd like a longer GL timer, and a ranged attack. No other problems with the job though.

[DerpyCubone]

Well not to burst your bubble DerpyCubone, but Monk isn't meant to solo. Pugilist is. All jobs are meant to be played inside groups, all classes are meant to be played solo.
h
If you go Pugilist? Suddenly you have more damage mitigation, healing, etc. available from cross class skills. As far as just talking about the job though I'll do you one better.


Solo Monk can survive well using bloodbath, feather foot, Second Wind, Fists of earth, Stuns, and silences. Even when I was soloing up through the content I never needed more than a single Second Wind and a feather foot to survive.

We have positioning but this also is something a solo dragoon has to deal with too.

Now if you want to talk damage wise, eh it gets a bit harder to do maximum damage as a monk solo or Pugilist, but solo you don't need your maximum damage to kill the monsters relatively fast, they are much weaker than their dungeon counterparts, and in solo instances usually second wind is all the healing you need.(Especially since they changed how second wind healing worked).

Just like Dragoon you CAN get the position bonuses if you're good enough, but melees will never have the same kind of solo potential pet classes or ranged classes have. It's pretty much like this in any RPG, not just MMO's.

Now after you're geared up in even just iLVL 55-60 gear, solo content becomes a joke with every class currently.

You also have to understand that if Monk is currently very powerful in team content, and he were to get buffed to be a better solo character, he'd still get buffed in said group content.

If I were to make any kind of change to how a Monk could solo better, I'd give the job a weak ranged attack. It's really the only issue you'd have solo. You see 6 monsters all aggressive , you need them for hunting log, you have to basically stealth until only one sees you to get a one on one fight.

Your kinda right about Pug, you do have more cross class, but less just everything else.
I don't want to give up my relic weapon, armor(relic or af depending) fists of fire, rockbreaker, shoulder tackle, and stats for uhhhhhh cure, and ummmm some archer abilities that I might get 2 mobs out of. That is not worth it at all.

"Solo Monk can survive well using bloodbath, feather foot, Second Wind, Fists of earth, Stuns, and silences."
On a side note, I would take silence out of that list. Monk silence is spotty since you have to hold in a stance to keep it at the ready.

"Now after you're geared up in even just iLVL 55-60 gear, solo content becomes a joke with every class currently."
That is true, but look at it like this(the following numbers are made up as an example, please keep that in mind), with GL3, lets say it takes 7 seconds to kill X enemy, and without GL it takes 10. Only 3 seconds of difference, 1 ability give or take.
So for 10 minutes of combat, not counting walking distance or anything like that, just time spent fighting. With GL you kill about 85 things. Without it's about 60.
That's a pretty decent difference.

Now this is the point were people say "blah blah blah endgame DPS" or "you will have GL" no, no you don't get GL up like that during solo. Mobs are too spread out, You can keep it going sometimes through close spawns or shoulder tackle on cooldown, but it's going to drop.
And if there is someone else out there farming the same things, well then it gets interesting. Depending on class they could get 2 to your 1. Which I know sounds like "Wahhhhh he is getting more then me!" it's a matter of class balance, not that some random guy over there got 2 hides to my 1, it's that I can't get 2 to his 1 in return, not sure I'm saying that so my point will come across right. Hope everyone gets my idea atleast

and lastly
"We have positioning but this also is something a solo dragoon has to deal with too."
Let's that a look at that
Mnk: Bootshine: Large POS Req, True Strike: Minor POS Req, Snap Punch: Large POS Req, Haymaker: No POS Req, Twin Snakes: Buff, DPS POS Req, Demo: No POS Req, Dragonkick, Large PoS Req. Touch of Death: No POS Req.
Drg: True Thrust: No POS Req, Vorpal Thrust: No POS Req, Impulse Drive: Large POS Req, Heavy Thrust, Buff and DPS POS Req, Piercing Talon: Ranged, No POS Req, Full Thrust: No POS Req, Phlebotomize: no pos req, Disembowel: no pos req, Chaos Thrust: no pos req Jumps: no Pos Req.
So while they do have POS Reqs... it's about where it is.. Their main rotation isn't affected by positioning. That is not counting Impusle Drive as cross class either, which most Monks take as a filler.

and lastly
"You also have to understand that if Monk is currently very powerful in team content, and he were to get buffed to be a better solo character, he'd still get buffed in said group content."
Mechanic fixes do not = buff to dps. They can keep current DPS numbers while still changing things.

[Cynric]

If you have a relic weapon and appropriate gear all monsters outside of dungeons die in like 3-4 hits with or without GL3. I farm mats too ya know. Your solo rotation should pretty much just be starting out Flank? DK. not Flank? bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap, then after that every single fight while you have stances up would just be DK> alternate Twin Snakes and True Strike(higherpotency without position) > Snap Punch.


You wont get any use out of DoTs or anything like that, you also get a rush in the form of shoulder tackle to make that walking easier, you can also always Sprint + Invigorate while in fists of wind, heck if you're using a relic just stay in fists of wind, and TP isn't an issue solo ever.

You also have your off GCD skills and buffs to cut the time down even more.

If you're talking about solo farming at 50 with actual gear everything is a non issue lol. And Dragoons kill just as fast, they wont even get to do their main rotation solo. Plus if you're 50 then you've exhausted solo instances so there's nothing to worry about there.

Also what mechanic fix do you suggest that would not effect DPS numbers? I already said a small damage ranged attack would help,(Although if I pull something with my Relic+1 using howling fist its probably about to die already).

Changing GL would effect damage numbers. I suppose you could make fists of wind faster to cut down sprint/walking time. Although in one sprint at 1k TP I can usually farm a ton of kills since most monsters are close together.

I'm sorry I don't really see how you could be at 50 with a relic and having any kind of issue with solo content where you out level it drastically with your gear.


Edit: I also forgot to mention that if you're farming mats without your chocobo then you're losing out man.

[DerpyCubone]

The issue isn't that I'm having a hard time doing it, but that it could be a better experience.

It's like pie, pie is good. I like pie, but pie can be improved. Same thing with monk, I think it can be improved.
You used off GCD stuff and running fists of wind and ect. I do all that stuff, with my chocobo out for added dps. Look at my math example again, look at the difference just 3 seconds (1 ability) can make over a long long period of time. That is what I'm wanting to be addressed
AGAIN not a cry for more dps or a "wahhh i dont kill fastester enuff", it's more "hey the thing that makes monk fun isn't working too well for solo play/handful of other sections"

As for what I would do hmmm, not really sure off the top of my head. I could see some things working and some not. The lose 1 stack per wear off is a nice idea, but would require dps adjustments other places.

I could see them keeping you in opo stance at default vs having nothing. That would help for solo a good bit but not mess with overall dps too much.
I could also see GL turned into a resource that you could spend. Something like 100 fists: Spend GL charges for increased damage and attack speed (aka what GL does now) and tie it into defense somehow, like maybe featherfoot spends them as well for a small defense boost while your eva goes up. Olm could do like 100 potency per stack or something, don't quote me on that number, just an example.
I think something along those lines could work well and offer some nice back and forth for players.

[Cynric]

Frankly, and I really am trying hard not to sound insulting but it does sound like whining. Ranged classes will always have an advantage farming weak monsters, It's kind of the benefit of having attacks that go really far away. This is an imbalance that has always existed in RPG's. Melee's will always have the short end of the stick with claiming monsters. It sucks but it comes with the territory.

Being in oppo stance would effect DPS, that means we get to start the fight with the Dragon Kick Debuff. So that wouldn't work.

As far as GL stacks decreasing one by one. Either way this ruins the balance. Fine tuning this would be kind of odd. You'll either have situations where you permanently have GL up in every single fight. or you wind up tuning the DPS too low so that starting without GL is the worst thing in the world. Currently our potency is just fine without GL 3 , all GL does is enhance it. Which is what buffs do. They enhance it. Solo you will never ever do your optimum damage.

As far as the resource idea goes, it wouldn't even be Monk. It'd be a different class entirely. This is basically changing the way the entire class works so it isn't even really an option to consider.

If monk already worked on charges we could talk about this. But it doesn't, and redesigning the class would affect everything about it, solo balance, endgame balance, story content balance. Every single thing would be changed by something like this. You might as well make this a class idea and suggest it because it is very doubtful they'd redesign the class from the ground up.

[DerpyCubone]

Thats fine to call it whining but please don't act like I'm trying to have things just easy mode. I'm not sitting here going "omg blms don't have to walk to mobs... thats so unfair that I have to move, GAH! and those dirty bards can kite, what kinda bullcrap is that!"

"Being in oppo stance would effect DPS, that means we get to start the fight with the Dragon Kick Debuff. So that wouldn't work."
Can do that now with PB, so there would be no change in that reguard.

"Currently our potency is just fine without GL 3"
No, take away all damage buffs from both melee classes, one will clearly outdamage the other
Mnk Attacks, 140 -> 150 -> 180
Drg attacks 150 -> 200 -> 300

"As far as the resource idea goes, it wouldn't even be Monk. It'd be a different class entirely. This is basically changing the way the entire class works so it isn't even really an option to consider."
Yea I agree it is a different class, but would you agree that if they didn't have GL at all, that monk would be a different class? Because that buff doesn't always come into play as things are now. And classes have been changed in other MMOs, it is an option.

Side note: Might be reaching my posting limit soon, so if I vanish that's why.

[Cynric]

You can't do perfect balance on every single pull to start with DK =]. If you were in Oppo you'd start every single fight period with Twin Snakes DMG buff and DK Blunt res/Int Debuff, which would actually increase over all DPS in dungeons by quite a lot.

Take away all buffs? Why would we do that? o_o. That's all part of the class. You can't just throw potency numbers from classes then take away the buffs that balance those numbers in the first place lol.

If we didn't have GL at all? Not entirely,we'd just be a bunch weaker which would ruin the balance. If we had a completely different mechanic? Yes.

Classes were changed in MMO's this is true. But I mean, think for a second. What do the other regions of the game think? Is monk considered weak to the other regions? Last I checked JP players think Monk is OP, so i'm pretty sure they don't. It's not like we alone get to decide if a class needs to be fixed. The evidence just isn't there to warrant a fix on Monk.

I mean if a few select players want Monks entire core balance and mechanics changed, where as many others are fine with it. I really hate to say this kind of stuff, but it's kind of a learn to play or pick a new class situation.

[DerpyCubone]

You can't do perfect balance on every single pull to start with DK =]. If you were in Oppo you'd start every single fight period with Twin Snakes DMG buff and DK Blunt res/Int Debuff, which would actually increase over all DPS in dungeons by quite a lot.

Take away all buffs? Why would we do that? o_o. That's all part of the class. You can't just throw potency numbers from classes then take away the buffs that balance those numbers in the first place lol.

If we didn't have GL at all? Not entirely,we'd just be a bunch weaker which would ruin the balance. If we had a completely different mechanic? Yes.

Classes were changed in MMO's this is true. But I mean, think for a second. What do the other regions of the game think? Is monk considered weak to the other regions? Last I checked JP players think Monk is OP, so i'm pretty sure they don't. It's not like we alone get to decide if a class needs to be fixed. The evidence just isn't there to warrant a fix on Monk.

I mean if a few select players want Monks entire core balance and mechanics changed, where as many others are fine with it. I really hate to say this kind of stuff, but it's kind of a learn to play or pick a new class situation.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm not presenting my point correctly but you seem to be missing my point a bit.

"Take away all buffs? Why would we do that? o_o. That's all part of the class. You can't just throw potency numbers from classes then take away the buffs that balance those numbers in the first place lol."
I listed those because you said "Currently our potency is just fine without GL 3" The other Mnk and Drg buffs mostly balance out, GL is the difference. So no reason to list that both drg and mnk get a 10% increase
Monk -GL is 5+10+10
Drg is 10+10. So 5% difference. I didn't wanna do the math but I will
Mnk: 147, 157.5, 189
Drg: 150, 200, 300


If changing GL = Class change, How does removing it = not a class change? If you take it away it has changed.

Yes if opo was default you would start with 1 DK on the first enemy. But that would be the only difference in dungeons. You will have TS buff currently on second hit, so not sure why you listed that to be honest. That wouldn't change at all.

Added: "I mean if a few select players want Monks entire core balance and mechanics changed, where as many others are fine with it. I really hate to say this kind of stuff, but it's kind of a learn to play or pick a new class situation."
We don't really know how many people want changes, don't care, don't know or don't want things to change. But there are people that atleast want SE to look into it. If enough people keep asking for them to look into it, they would do well to listen to their players (see warrior, name changes, the fact that ARR is a thing in the first place)

[NoctisUmbra]

Cynric, let me save you like 3 pages of trouble.

DerpyCubone wants a redesigned MNK that is a bit more efficient in solo play, and is unsatisfied, on a personal level, with some of the mechanics of the job. There are some who may also feel this way.

You and I - we're happy with the way MNK currently is designed. In fact we may be particularly fond of it even. We do not wish any changes upon the job that would impact its playstyle. There are some who may also feel this way.

You guys can spend 2-3 pages like I did going back and forth trying to justify subjective wants with in game examples, or you can realize that you will never see eye to eye because this is a fundamentally subjective discussion. Kind of like trying to convince the other person that they're favorite color is in fact your favorite color, but they just don't realize it yet.

Now, if we think about this from SE's point of view, one of those factions requires changes to appease. The other requires they make no changes. I am referring to changes to the core mechanics. Changes that would require them to rebalance the job itself, almost from the ground up.

From a cost perspective, this is highly unlikely. The smart thing to do would be to spend resources on building new classes and jobs instead of breaking and putting back together existing jobs that remain balanced. That is just my final 2 cents though.