Monk- general discussion and feedback

[Shidobu]

Ideas off the top of my head since we are in the relm of "what if's and can i have this"

We should be able to spend Grease lightning stacks like Arcanist use atherflows

Situation where you are 100% sure your going to loose your GL to Teleports/jumps/phase shifts/dungeon mechanics
Can spend your Greased lightning stacks for some extra damage since you are going to loose GL anyways
One inch punch = Base potency added effect: +potency per stack of GL. ( A fully buffed one inch punch around 200-250 potency?)

Can give mnk another spike move to compensate for dps lost during dungeon mechanics. This would be a nice trade imo would have to give one inch punch a longer CD to negate abuse

Perfect balance should (imo) should give us TP 200-300tp to combat skill speed tp drain that happens when you start capping gear out. TP every 3 minutes is not broken when there's abilities like Invigorate around


just things that came to my mind that i would enjoy as a monk.

[neoreturn]

If you're a good Monk, other class's DPS doesn't even stand a chance.
And now, the only time you're supposed to be losing GL are the primal fights.

Your statement is completely wrong. It's depending on several facts.
1. Fight duration, for a 10 to 20 sec fight , MNK DPS could easily lose to all others.
2. Boss mechanic, some boss favor ranged DPS a lot.
3. Role during the fight, some DPS is assigned the other role in fight, so they can not output their full potential.

By a real test on dummy with 5 mins result, MNK isn't super above any other DPS. If MNK on dummy result can not be 30% higher than other ranged DPS class, we are hard to image monk DPS can be on top with a real fight which need avoid some aoe.

[Meleena]

let dragon kick animation alone.
We dont need faster WS animations, they are extremely fast as is.
Give 1 sec more to GL

[NoctisUmbra]

Your statement is completely wrong. It's depending on several facts.
1. Fight duration, for a 10 to 20 sec fight , MNK DPS could easily lose to all others.
2. Boss mechanic, some boss favor ranged DPS a lot.
3. Role during the fight, some DPS is assigned the other role in fight, so they can not output their full potential.

By a real test on dummy with 5 mins result, MNK isn't super above any other DPS. If MNK on dummy result can not be 30% higher than other ranged DPS class, we are hard to image monk DPS can be on top with a real fight which need avoid some aoe.

Yes, a short fight (typically under 30 seconds) is where Burst DPS jobs will shine. Hence the name. Burst DPS. They spike up and then plateau.

There is currently no boss in game where a MNK is incapable of topping DPS. You can't use your personal bubble of experiences or group of friends and their DPS values to make wide assertions like that. Fights that favor ranged DPS favor them in a safety capacity. Not in terms of DPS. Ranged DDs are balanced to do lower DPS in exchange for being safe at a distance. In the case of BRD, it has higher DPS than it should for the amount of mobility it has while also being safe at a distance - thus it is getting the nerfbat in 2.1. Slight nerf, but nerf nevertheless.

MNK is typically assigned the "burn that target down as fast as you can" role. There are better jobs for just about any other type of role, such as stunning/silencing. What MNK excels at is DPS. Point a good MNK at what you want dead, and watch it go down. Granted the target is expected to last more then 20s if you're starting from 0. If it is mid content, the MNK typically already has GL3 and thus will still perform better than a burst dps job, or at least on par with one.

A dummy test is a test of stationary DPS. It is a good way to calculate the DPS ceiling of a job. It is not a good measure of a job's performance in content. You can't just pick 5 minutes as an arbitrary number and go with it, and then say MNK DPS isn't top because it runs dry on TP at around 2 minutes without Paeon. All the time you spend with MNK on a dummy without TP isn't reflecting the job's DPS potential. That 5 minute comparison thing is just a scapegoat DRGs use to try and argue that their DPS is as good. Most content in game doesn't involve TP issues due to various mechanics that cause breaks in DPS.

Stationary DPS is not necessary reflective of a job's performance in content, ie. content-specific DPS.

[Onyxys]

NoctisUmbra, say the truth- are you just a theoretic man or not? Show us DPS logs of DPS meter from different bosses in Coil (boss must be killed). Word are just words

[NoctisUmbra]

NoctisUmbra, say the truth- are you just a theoretic man or not? Show us DPS logs of DPS meter from different bosses in Coil (boss must be killed). Word are just words

I'd be happy to. Unfortunately, I completed turns 1-4 last night as I typically do with my FC and did not parse. You'll have to wait until next week.

I am a very theoretical man. I enjoy theorycrafting. I had multiple theories on optimal rotations which evolved over time and with experience in content.

You don't have to take my word for it though. If you've been through turns 1-4 of Coil you should already know that MNK is a monster when it comes to DPS. Even in fights that favor ranged in terms of safety, such as ADS.

BG just cleared Twintania (Turn 5) this last weekend. Their kill video is up. They've got a MNK running in their party. Why do you think they would bother with that if MNK had inferior DPS as you suggest? Why not another BRD, or BLM, which are both safer options? They've not been shy to stack certain DPS in the past.

Food for thought Onyxys.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

Holy crap it's like you have no reading comprehension or are just twisting words on purpose at this point
Let's break this down a bit.

"You would have to be very mindful of what buffs you had when you applied your DoTs in order to deduce whether or not your overwrite attempt will be successful. That's one. Furthermore, you will have to make sure that the final tick of the DoT (which due to server time ticks and how that works will happen during the final 3 seconds of the DoT uptime) actually went off before overwriting it in order to not clip it and lower your Demolish damage, and in turn your DPS."
All true what you said, However you claimed before, as fact, that you could not overwrite dots, that the game will not let you. Those 2 things aren't the same thing. So like I said, either you misspoke about the game not letting you overwrite dots, or you were wrong when explaining to the person earlier. There is no in between on that. Explaining how the game does in fact work at a min-max level doesn't change what you presented as fact.
"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." Is something you tried to pass off as a fact. It is incorrect. Do you agree that what you said is wrong? If not, why? Did you mean something else? Did you mean that in only the sense of a weaker buff getting overwritten? That's fine if you did however your statement is still factually incorrect and could cause issues to up and coming monks thinking they would always have to wait as that was how the game worked. And as someone who is trying to use my lack of coil as proof, that you said something that is just blatantly wrong is pretty nice to throw back in your face.

"You just compared playing a video game at endgame to getting shot. Right. Bad analogy, to say the least. That's ok, most people suck at analogies."
You right, it would be a bad analogy, too bad I wasn't using an analogy, but an example. I was using getting shot as an example for inferred knowledge, Don't feel bad that you didn't understand that. As you yourself said, most people suck at analogies.

For Solo play, your right that keeping GL up is easy if the enemy is sitting there fighting you... so could you please tell me where you go that the enemies aren't spread out at all? Or do you just teleport around and have no walking distant between fights?

"Also there you go again with the DPS mention. Losing GL3 isn't unfair to MNK."
I wasn't talking about losing it, I was talking about not having it at all, which I often don't while I am farming, putting monk at a annoying disadvantage.
"Everything you say gives the impression you think MNK is being unfairly punished by losing GL3 stacks. It isn't. It still pulls off higher DPS in long fights than most if not all other DPS jobs"
And short fights? How about those?

"The problem arises when you try to present your opinions as being more than that - like there's an actual balance problem, or something is unfair and needs to be changed, etc... or when you chime in with support for suggested changes that will in fact upset the balance of DPS jobs by overpowering MNK."
You do know you can adjust things but keep the DPS levels the same right? There are sideways adjustments?
It's just math, 2+2+2=6, but so does 1+2+3.

And lastly, the thing we 100% agree on
"You're arguments are entirely opinionated" I could say the same thing about you. That your arguments are entirely opinionated.

I think that we play a very different game. I spend my time soloing while waiting for life to settle down. Competing for mobs while your the slowest dps out there (smn might be slower for solo play, I'm not sure to be honest) because GL is a huge part of Monk damage and you will not have it based on mob spacing/other people claiming/things like that. It's frustrating.
I'm guessing your spending your time in Coil where things like that don't matter to you. That's fine, GL is working for you. It's not working for me.

[DerpyCubone]

I'd be happy to. Unfortunately, I completed turns 1-4 last night as I typically do with my FC and did not parse. You'll have to wait until next week.

You can't use your personal bubble of experiences or group of friends and their DPS values to make wide assertions like that.

"One of these things is not like the others."

[NoctisUmbra]

"You would have to be very mindful of what buffs you had when you applied your DoTs in order to deduce whether or not your overwrite attempt will be successful. That's one. Furthermore, you will have to make sure that the final tick of the DoT (which due to server time ticks and how that works will happen during the final 3 seconds of the DoT uptime) actually went off before overwriting it in order to not clip it and lower your Demolish damage, and in turn your DPS."
All true what you said, However you claimed before, as fact, that you could not overwrite dots, that the game will not let you. Those 2 things aren't the same thing. So like I said, either you misspoke about the game not letting you overwrite dots, or you were wrong when explaining to the person earlier. There is no in between on that. Explaining how the game does in fact work at a min-max level doesn't change that fact.
"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." Is something you tried to pass off as a fact. It is incorrect. Do you agree that what you said is wrong? If not, why? Did you mean something else? Did you mean that in only the sense of a weaker buff getting overwritten? That's fine if you did however your statement is still factually incorrect and could cause issues to up and coming monks thinking they would always have to wait as that was how the game worked. And as someone who is trying to use my lack of coil as proof, that you said something that is just blatantly wrong is pretty nice to throw back in your face.

Yup. definitely fond of that. Yes. I misspoke there. Why? Because I never tested something so very specific as whether your DoT has to be stronger, or equal in strength, to overwrite. Normally I'd go and test it in such a scenario, but even now I'll take your word for it being true. Why? Because it is inconsequential. Doesn't matter. That information has not been of any use to me.

See, when you try to cling to that for like 3-4 posts in a thread and try to use it as ammunition to suggest I don't know how DoTs work or suggest it says a lot about my MNK then it's just funny/desperate.

The facts I do know, such as the server ticks, the potency comparisons between DoT skills and non-DoT skills, and the risks associated with overwriting compared to the rewards, then it never occurs to me to spend time testing such a specific scenario that is, again, inconsequential. That is what I was trying to demonstrate with my previous post. Yet you keep quoting me like a child that wants gratification for having caught something.


As for the rest of your last post, I don't see anything else I need to address.

"One of these things is not like the others."

Don't be a smartass. He asked for a parse. I didn't offer it as proof for my statements. If he feels that information is relevant to him, so be it. Perhaps he thinks it is impossible for MNK to top a parse in specific battles where the bar is set high.

[Onyxys]

BG just cleared Twintania (Turn 5) this last weekend. Their kill video is up. They've got a MNK running in their party. Why do you think they would bother with that if MNK had inferior DPS as you suggest? Why not another BRD, or BLM, which are both safer options?

I dodnt care about this. I know runs in Castrum with one tank and 7 whitemages and runs were EXTRIMLY very fast- much faster then normal raid. Does that meens that whitemage are the most powerfull DPS?- no, doesnt meen. I want to say (as for me)- I see problems in monk's skills and mechanics and I dont care about balance at all- if, by fixing monk other classes will become weaker, so it meens, that this classes must be fixed next. Problem exist- it must be fixed- I see problems in monk's skill's and mechanics. Bug or issues- doest metter. If, after fixing, will apper new bug, so, it must be fixed next. Logic is simple.