Summoners useless in 24mans?

[Alberel]

Again, and I must stress this. I want to see evidence of the accusation that the 30 Debuff limit is not a display limitation. So far, I have seen none provided and this entire scare is done off of stipulation that's not even factually there.

Any SMN that has done any of the larger FATEs can confirm that this is a genuine issue. Once 30 effects are stacked on the target any further debuffs or DOTs will give the 'no effect' message unless you already have a debuff 'slot' claimed that you can overwrite. I can cast all my DOTs in sequence and follow up with a Fester for 0 damage because every single one of them bounced off the 30 debuff limit.

It is a genuine issue and if nothing is done about it before CT we are going to see all debuff-heavy jobs excluded from content.

[Jynx]

Again, I'm disputing this as a display issue, not an actual cap issue.

People have said it multiple times in this exact thread.

It's not a display issue or Summoners would be able to use Fester unhindered in single target FATES. Svarra for example often hits the debuff cap rather quickly if you put your 3 DoT's up and use Fester

(This abillity deals damage depending on what DoT stacks you have up)

You will often do 0 damage and get a "NO EFFECT" pop up because your debuffs have been overwritten. It's 100% not a display issue it's a downright cap.

[Hyrist]

People have said it multiple times in this exact thread.

It's not a display issue or Summoners would be able to use Fester unhindered in single target FATES. Svarra for example often hits the debuff cap rather quickly if you put your 3 DoT's up and use Fester

(This abillity deals damage depending on what DoT stacks you have up)

You will often do 0 damage and get a "NO EFFECT" pop up because your debuffs have been overwritten. It's 100% not a display issue it's a downright cap.

I have a Summoner on my primary Balmung character and I've yet to encounter this issue personally. I'll try it out.

It is a genuine issue and if nothing is done about it before CT we are going to see all debuff-heavy jobs excluded from content.

Encounter design can solve for that problem before mechanic design can, and I honestly feel that should be the priority focus for Crystal Tower. There are issues of focused targets dying too fast for DoT classes to begin with in argument all over MMO's and the primarily issue has little to do with debuff limits, but rather encounter design. I certainly hope we do not have 24 man single target encounters as our primary pastime, regardless of the current debuff cap issue.

However, we're presuming that all 24 members present will be focused on a singular target or same group of targets, or if the enemies in Crystal Tower follow the same mechanical rules as FATE monsters do.

We make great assumptions on everything and then when it turns out to be not even close to what the initial expectation was, we cry for different reasons anyways. Crystal Tower is Duty Finder content, so nobodys going to be picking or choosing anything unless they drop at the sight of a Summoner, which will be their loss, not the Summoners. Complaining about the problem currently in FATES as described would be a better course than presuming the class is defunct in unreleased content, as addressing one would solve the other hopefully anyways.

[TwiztedHarlequin]

The stupidity in this thread is absolutely astonishing , first of all there IS a cap , secondly its HIGHLY likely the 3 group WILL perform together at some point doing the same boss etc otherwise as previously mentioned it would be entire pointless to do a 24 man instance in the first place , and last but not least heres a bit of math for the ones that still believe a 30 debuff cap is more than enough :

each of the 3 groups needs at least 1 tank so i just go with PLD here

PLD : don't know the actual skill names since i didn't play my PLD very far but as far as i know they have about 3 "debuffs / dots" that have to be up constantly 3 x 3 = 9

30 - 9 = 21 NEXT!

Each of the three group will AT LEAST have 1 bard ( more likely 2 considering their "contributional value" but lets go with 1 for each group :

BARD : 3 bards each constantly keeping up windbite + venomous bite because those two alone already make up a good ammount of every competent bards dps and theres rain of death which reduces a targets overall dmg output by 10% must have in bossfights so we're at : 3 x 3 = 9

21 - 9 = 12 NEXT!

Dragoons~ lets just assume theres 1 in every group as well

DRG : phlebotomize + disembowel + chaos thrust are a regular part of every dragoons rotaion and a must have , otherwise they'd be seriously gimping their dps potential and those dots / debuffs have to be up all the time , and i'm already being generous here only counting those , some dragoons even weave fracture into their rotation so that would make 4 dots / debuffs per dragoon but i only count 3 for now , and again 3 x 3 = 9

12 - 9 = 3 NEXT!

Monks~ they as well have a couple of debuffs / dots that should be up permanently to maximize dps / playing at optimal efficiency

MNK : touch of death + demolish 2 high potency dots and also dragon kick which lowers targets blunt resistance by 10% here as well all 3 are a must have for monks otherwise dps will drop considerably oh and onks as well as dragoons "can" theoretically use fracture as well as an additional dot but i'm leaving that one out here again since its "optional" to have in the rotation , and here we go yet again :
3 x 3 = 9

3 - 9 = -6 so yeah here we are , only 4 classes through and there are already 6 debuffs / dots that can't be applied anymore since we're already over the cap , and hey there are still 4 slots left 1 for WHM's that often like to throw in their aero for a little "extra" dps and since a WHM in every group is a must have thats 3 x 1 = 3 , then for the ideal group we have scholars as the second healer for every group and guess what? my main is scholar and everytime theres a "calm phase of low incoming damage" in bossfights etc i always quickly switch to cleric stance and quickly drop a bio + aero AT LEAST ( often more like bioII misma / thunder depending on how much time i have ) then switch out and go full on healing again like every competent scholar does , so since we're being generous lets just count the bio + aero combo which is 3 x 2 = 6 alright~ so far so good..hmmm 2 slots left for each of the 3 parties...lets say each party also has a BLM with them which has a dot too that should be up at all times ( thunder ) so thats 3 x 1 = 3 ALLRIGHT! ONE party member slot left for each of the 3 groups and we're already 18 debuffs / dots over the cap which means 18 of those ESSENTIAL debuffs / dots already don't count , so now the last 3 slots we reserve for our dear summoners each of them having ~5-6 ESSENTIAL dot / debuff effects as well so we're roughly !!>>> 33 <<<!! dots / debuffs OVER the cap already completely crippling summoners damage output and also that of all other classes and as i mentioned this is a VERY generous math i did there and i only used ESSENTIAL debuffs / dots for this equation i didn't even count skills such as blind , slow , eye for an eye , heavy , >> stuns << ( not being able to land a stun means wipe in many of the current highend bossfights and i'm sure it will get even worse in the future ) , virus and a couple of others that don't come to mind atm , so all in all we're pretty much screwed with the current cap
and even if you take into consideration that rain of death debuff / dragon kick / chaos thrust only needs to be applied by one of the respective classes means you can only substract 6 debuffs / dots in total that still leaves us with 27 over cap

Oh yeah forgot something : some peoples argument "well in a proper FC group summoners will tell other classes to skip out on dots so the summoners can place theirs" is completely invalid simply because melees dots / bards / blm's dots aren't any weaker than summoners dots , more like the opposite since summoners dots don't deal inital damage ( which kinda does get mitigated by fester at the end , which still makes them at best only "on par" ) the only difference is summoners simply have twice as many dots as other classes , not necessarily stronger ones despite them being a " dot class "

[devilzpawn]

Maybe the scenario is that, there will be one boss, and at points spawn multiple adds. so smn will prob keep dots on main while the rest will deal with the adds. (plus player deaths adding to what a sub-healing duties, etc) I doubt every player which has some sort of dot will be applying to main boss 100% of the time besides at near death. I imagine there will be at most two teams on the boss and one on adds or vise-versa, who knows, if I knew the future like so many people on these forums I would be rich.

[Naunet]

Maybe the scenario is that, there will be one boss, and at points spawn multiple adds. so smn will prob keep dots on main while the rest will deal with the adds. (plus player deaths adding to what a sub-healing duties, etc) I doubt every player which has some sort of dot will be applying to main boss 100% of the time besides at near death. I imagine there will be at most two teams on the boss and one on adds or vise-versa, who knows, if I knew the future like so many people on these forums I would be rich.

If every fight were a "kill boss, deal with adds" fight, that would get old, fast. Raids tend to have a variety of encounters, including - yes - burn-a-single-target-as-fast-as-you-(in)humanly-can fights. The likelihood of the 30 debuff limit becoming a problem in a 24 man raid is extremely high.

[devilzpawn]

If every fight were a "kill boss, deal with adds" fight, that would get old, fast. Raids tend to have a variety of encounters, including - yes - burn-a-single-target-as-fast-as-you-(in)humanly-can fights. The likelihood of the 30 debuff limit becoming a problem in a 24 man raid is extremely high.

You may be right in the situation. Maybe it will be like dynamis (just a guess since there will be 24 people in one instance, and they all need something to do). I guess time will tell.

[SummonerSenah]

I've had this issue come up in big Fates like Svara and Lazy Laurence. But even despite not being able to lay down dots and fester, I've still come out with Gold in those cases, and usually I wasn't even in a party. (I have more baby buns than I know what to do with!) If you're not dealing damage, Arcanist/summoner is a good second healer.

That said, I do think the cap is a bad idea, though. Wouldn't mind seeing it lifted.

[Zfz]

As palaidn:

Rage of Halone strength debuff will ALWAYS be up, avoiding that means you don't want a Paladin there.
Blind from Flash will often be up, although not always, and can be avoided if asked.
Silence will be up every now and then for 1 second, although it can be avoided if asked.
No-WS will be up very often for a few seconds each time, although it can be avoided if asked.
Circle of Scorn will be up every so often, although it can be avoided if asked.
Knock-down will appear whenever you ask the paladin to interrupt, although it can be avoided if the Paladin never interrupt anything.

So in the extreme case, the Paladin can perform reasonably close to maximum capacity with 1 debuff.
For the Paladin to perform at full capacity, he needs to have access to 6 debuff slots.

Although I think Blind, Silence, No-WS and Knock-down may all be shared categorical debuffs, maybe people who do FATEs can check if you ever see double Blinds up?

If these are categorical, then Paladin needs minimum 1 slot, and to perform at full capacity needs 2 slots plus 4 shared slots.

[gtasthehunter]

crystal tower.

24 people

as a paladin i can place 3 debuffs on bosses myself, as a monk another 3, as a dragoon 4, as a summoner there's 5-6, and bard and blm dps would suffer quite a bit without their dots applied

basically in crystal tower, summoner's just won't do damage to any boss where all 3 parties meet up

how would BLM dps suffer without using DoT spells... BLM main spells are nukes... And SMN's still have Summons and also Shadow Flare that is a DoT PBAoE so that wont just fall off...