WAR and Wrath: Important Mechanics Discussed.

[PessimiStick]

Sorry, I don't understand where the figure 13K came from. I haven't read the entire thread because it fell into flame wars, then I found your post @ the end which *seems* intellectual lol. did you mean 1300 over 5 GCD? Which does actually seem reasonable?

I mean, the OP, If I'm still looking at the right thread, quoted a translation from Yoshi-P, so, I'm not really sure why/how the flame WAR started. Obviously there was truth to it. . .

Presumably he's comparing his IB against the bonus to the healer from 5 Wrath stacks.

[rexie]

As PessimiStick mentioned, I'm comparing IB with bonus to heals from a healer with 5 Wrath stacks.
i.e. I can heal myself at worst 1300 HP every 5 GCD (most of the time more).
Wrath buff is 15%, so a healer has to heal me over 10k within 5 GCD period to outperform IB.

As I mentioned, in pre-Coil content, that is just not going to happen + DMG from IB is really excellent (300 pot without penalty vs. 270 pot with -25% is a big difference) + healers can actually have use for their MP and DD which speeds up any run rather than overcure you needlessly.
On coil, it is a different story; IMO it is all situational, but I personally find that using it as it pops is helping me survive better than just keeping it.

I need more testing and data to validate such claim, but I'm just sharing my personal experience ^^

[Hachiko]

As PessimiStick mentioned, I'm comparing IB with bonus to heals from a healer with 5 Wrath stacks.
i.e. I can heal myself at worst 1300 HP every 5 GCD (most of the time more).
Wrath buff is 15%, so a healer has to heal me over 10k within 5 GCD period to outperform IB.

You will never, ever, IB every 5 GCD's. At best you get to IB every 8, but more realistically it's 9 or higher.

That is a lot of extra time for heals to roll in, really.

But you also only need less than that, it's more like 9% of a healing deficit, so if 9% of the heals over 20 seconds is > 1300 you shouldn't use IB.

In general whenever you're in a situation in which you can be solo-healed it's worth it to use IB whenever you can fully benefit from the heal and you don't have any over-healing.

[Telepathic]

You will never, ever, IB every 5 GCD's. At best you get to IB every 8, but more realistically it's 9 or higher.

I just want to point out that if you really are spamming IB, you can average an IB every 6.1 GCD's for about 3.5 minutes. After that it falls to about every 6.33 GCD's. Not saying you should spam IB and obviously you will get a ton of overhealing.

If you start counting GCD's with the first IB and not at zero Wrath then you will be at 5.4 GCD's/IB after 3.5 minutes and you will slowly start converging to 6.33 GCD's/IB.

Also you can average 4 IB/minute for 3.5 minutes. After that you converge on 3.8 IB/min.

[Ruminate]

It doesn't matter how many IBs you can get per minute. Incoming damage is not a straight line. It has peaks and valleys. If you use IB immediately everytime it lights up, there is a very high chance either you or the healer will overheal, thus; you're using up 5 wrath stacks for 0 gain.

[rexie]

You will never, ever, IB every 5 GCD's.

It is not at-best, it should be most of the time @ 8 and @7-6, depending on the situation, not counting IF.

*bunch of statistics*

Very interesting! Do you mind sharing the math behinds it and why did you pick 3.5 minutes, or was it just easy to calculate?

there is a very high chance either you or the healer will overheal, thus; you're using up 5 wrath stacks for 0 gain.

these situations happen, just wait for 1-2 GCD, pop Fracture and then by that time my HP might dip by 1k, in which IB wouldn't be overcuring.

You are right with PUG setup chances are you'll be stuck with mediocre healers who have to top your HP . I'm discussing non-coil content.

The decent healers I play with don't even bother curing me until my HP drops below 2k on single-targets, 3k on multiple (I found these #s the safe margins).

[HiirNoivl]

y; In regards to Wrath and Inner Beast, right now lots of players are using Inner Beast right after taking a big damage to heal him/herself
y; but when you stack Wrath you can get up to maximum 15% heal bonus, so right after taking a big hit don’t go straight into self heal but wait for the heal from the healers first.
y; They will heal you once they notice your HP is down.
y; During Wrath you get different types of bonuses, Paladins sure have high vitality and hit points but comparing the damage they take vs amount of heal taken from outside is balanced
y; However this was balanced with Wrath in mind, so it’s really hard here.
y; When you have Wrath on it’s much better to be receiving heals, and after receiving the heals
y; if you use Inner Beast the Wrath status is removed, all the buff is removed so you’ll need to bring it back up.
y; So you first put in your first attack from the combo, then use Inner Beast, then continue onto the combo to quickly gain back Wrath
y; Since Inner Beast is an ability, it does not break the combo
f; Yes
y; Doing that will get your Wrath back right away
y; Honestly, going through this pattern is pretty hard. I know there are people doing this
y; But Warriors were structured this way and as a healer, after the Warrior uses inner beast
y; they won’t heal as much, if it’s after inner beast and I think this is the part where people think
y; that Warriors are softer. There are many things involved here.
y; So until 2.1 I want the players to learn how to rotate through the Wrath and in 2.1 since we think that this is a bit too hard we’ll be making adjustments

So basically: Let's say I'm after the heart phase on Titan. I have Wrath V when I get hit by Mountain Buster, get healed up, use Inner Beast to heal off the minor damage from his auto-attack, then use the interval afterward to build up Wrath V for the next Mountain Buster and that's how it's supposed to work.

Inner Beast was not meant to mitigate the large damage.

But what I don't understand is why they thought this would make sense in Caduceus, where he hits you for half your HP with a HoodSwing in no predictable pattern. Sure, you can still mitigate that with Wrath V heal buff, but when would you know it was okay to drop Wrath V?

All I know is in Caduceus, you NEVER use Inner Beast before the split. Evar. :O

Then there seems to be a misunderstanding in the explanation about Building Wrath.

Yoshi wants you to use Heavy Swing > Inner Beast > Maim > Storms Eye Blah blah blah blah

But you never get your "Wrath back right away" with combos after using it. You're back to 0. You need at least 6 seconds, during which 6 seconds, Caduceus will eat your face. If you Combo During Wrath V it's not like you get up to Wrath IX use Inner Beast Mid Combo and get Wrath V on your next hit. Seriously Mr. P, you are my dawg but... what the....?

[Terabyt3]

words

Basically they didn't test WAR with higher incoming DPS.

Cad doesn't become problematic for WAR until 3 stacks+ at which point they intended it to be problematic for PLD to. In practice though taht's not what happened.

As a large portion of the community has proven with maths the disparity between PLD and WAR is that PLD's mitigation is scaling and WARs is static.

Also there's no reason NOT to use Inner Beast before the split..... It's a fixed hp% where the split occurs. If you've blown Unchained and infuriate is available why not through IB out there? You can get 5 stacks up straight away from Infuriate. Don't rob yourself of a decent 300 potency hit ignoring dmg reduction from defiance.

Even in his example above that is still around 5 seconds AFTER IB before you recieve 2 wrath.

Likely options for changes:

Gain wrath everytime you are attacked. (Fast attacking mobs is gonna be IB crazy)
Have IB only consume 2-3 wrath. (Still not scaling with incoming DPS)
Put the healing buff on defiance instead of Wrath (Makes much more sense and bring it in line with PLD for healing)
Change foresight to increas Parry rate by 60% (Bulwark for WAR's)
10 Second ability where a war can never be knoked below 1hp (Hallowed ground for WAR's maybe what ToB will become? Instead of a slightly better second wind it is now?)
Overpower now generates wrath OR doesn't break combo.
Brutal Swing changed to be shield bash of PLD's. GCD trigger, no CD of it's own.

Those are my 7 changes I reckon they'd be looking at. Means WARs would have on average an active mitigation rate of about 16%~ (increased parry, invun and healing buff) with the 4%~ discrepancy to measure up to PLDs average of constant 20%~ coming from the static IB uses (Which with the above changes would increase with speed of incoming damage).

Or they could make it so wrath stack accumilates on how much you are hit for.
Hit for up to 800? 1 wrath
800-1500? 2 wrath
1500-2300? 3 wrath

[HiirNoivl]

If you lose Wrath V and then get hit by Hoodswing before you regain it.... You lose. :3 Your healer will be OOM very quickly. The presplit Caduceus is only one third of the fight. There's no reason to make your mages heal through higher damage with 2/3rds of the fight still ahead of you. Plus you lose your Crit Buff meaning the fight lasts even longer because it slightly lowers your own hits.

It's just not worth it at that one third of the fight. Grease the incoming heals in the first phase and the fight will be easier and more manageable after the split when the incoming damage is also less.

[Terabyt3]

If you lose Wrath V and then get hit by Hoodswing before you regain it.... You lose. :3 Your healer will be OOM very quickly. The presplit Caduceus is only one third of the fight. There's no reason to make your mages heal through higher damage with 2/3rds of the fight still ahead of you. Plus you lose your Crit Buff meaning the fight lasts even longer because it slightly lowers your own hits.

It's just not worth it at that one third of the fight. Grease the incoming heals in the first phase and the fight will be easier and more manageable after the split when the incoming damage is also less.

You'll lose the Wrath V for aprox. 0.5 seconds. Time IB after a hoodswing.

Hoodswing>IB>Infuriate. Wrath doesnt drop until almost the end of IB animation at which point Infuriate can be popped.