[Dragoons] Should be spamming AoEs for max DPS

[ShinigamiB06]

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A Pld can do 610 potency in 3 GDCs.
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This is the thing that people dont seem to understand. potency is a percentage and/or relative number. What this means is that it is completely possible for a tank to use a skill with 10,000 potency, and yet a dragoon using a skill with 100 potency can still do more damage. that is because potency is simply a number to indicate how much damage a skill does relative to another skill, not another player. Furthermore, it is completely possible that if a dragoon is using a skill that has double the potency of a skill used by a paladin, it is completely possible that the dragoon is actually doing three times the damage, because that is how the raw numbers work

That being said, a tank and healer who sacrifice some dps for the sake of a dragoon doing double the dps...well, admittedly, i havent run the numbers so i cant say definitively, but based on my past experiences running dungeons, this is a smart trade of. and like someone pointed out, speed runs are done with AOEs so that just proves that im right.

[Supersun]

Do you think the healer is dropping Holy if the tank can't hold AOE threat against a DRG using a basic AOE rotation? Incoherent much?

Ps. a tank's role isn't to DPS. Lmfao. A tank can either do X damage, or X*4 threat. If the DPS is pulling X*4 damage, then maybe, just maybe, X*4 > X+X?

...might want to read those statements in context since you apparently completely missed the point I was making.

(that or I just failed to adequately communicate it, but I'm assuming that 99% of the people were able to understand that I was saying that party kill speed > personal DPS)

This is the thing that people dont seem to understand. potency is a percentage and/or relative number. What this means is that it is completely possible for a tank to use a skill with 10,000 potency, and yet a dragoon using a skill with 100 potency can still do more damage. that is because potency is simply a number to indicate how much damage a skill does relative to another skill, not another player. Furthermore, it is completely possible that if a dragoon is using a skill that has double the potency of a skill used by a paladin, it is completely possible that the dragoon is actually doing three times the damage, because that is how the raw numbers work

That being said, a tank and healer who sacrifice some dps for the sake of a dragoon doing double the dps...well, admittedly, i havent run the numbers so i cant say definitively, but based on my past experiences running dungeons, this is a smart trade of. and like someone pointed out, speed runs are done with AOEs so that just proves that im right.

Well aware that potency isn't a 1=1 across players, but at the same time it's not as far off as you are making it to be.

It's not like players use different damage formulas. Weapon damage across jobs is mostly the same. Most players (non-mage) have around the same Str stat (with job traits and stat allocation being the only real big differences). That really just leaves secondary stats which for the most part add a very small amount over all (relatively speaking) and whatever comes specific to your class and job(such as Flanking Thrusts +10% damage bonus).

Yes, raw numbers can skew things a bit with damage bonuses, but it's actually not in your favor if you are talking about Healer + Tank vs DD.

Once again, it's all situational, but for example if you have a Sch healer they need ~7.5 seconds uninterrupted to do the vast majority of their AoE damage. If you take hate because of your AoE spam and are getting your rear kicked badly enough that the Sch can't get 7.5 secs to get his DoTs up and Bane them then you are losing out on a MASSIVE amount of damage, more then your AoE spam is adding (especially since all you would need to do to greatly improve your party's killspeed in this scenario is just wait 10 or so seconds before AoE spamming so the Sch can DoT and Bane everything first).

Like I said before, just coordinate with your party. If you are AoE spamming every time all the time there are situations where you are likely making the party more inefficient.

[ShinigamiB06]

but it's actually not in your favor if you are talking about Healer + Tank vs DD.

You make an interesting point, unfortunately I have the numbers to disprove it.

Imagine:
my drag has a DPS of 100.
random tank has a DPS of 99.
random healer has a DPS of 99.
~Total of all three added is 298 DPS.

In this scenario, as a drg I am doing more damage than the tank and healer individually. But like you said, If you take the damage done by both healer and tank, they will combine deal more dps than the dragoon. But my thread is about hitting 3 targets and thus effectively doubling my DPS. But because their individual base damage for both is less that mine, my damage multiplied by two will ALWAYSbe greater than their DPS combines.

And lets be realistic and throw in a second ( or maybe third and fourth) DPS, because that is how it is in dungeons. If that other dps is also casting AoEs, then the gap of damage between the DPS in the party by far overtake the damage done by Tank + Healer.

And lastly, let me point out that it is completely unrealistic that because DPS start using AoEs, the tank and healer will have to absolutely stop dealing damage. A paladin for example might have to use flash more frequently, but that doesnt mean he has to use that skill exclusively. he might not be able to do his 3-part combo attack, but he can still do the 1-2 part and do some damage. This also applies to healers. Less dps, but still some dps nonetheless.

Overall --> two DPS at 200% damage, + a tank and healer at 50% damage is greater than all four DPSing at 100%.

come on man im stating facts not opinions. just give in and tell me im right

[Supersun]

You make an interesting point, unfortunately I have the numbers to disprove it.

Imagine:
my drag has a DPS of 100.
random tank has a DPS of 99.
random healer has a DPS of 99.
~Total of all three added is 298 DPS.

In this scenario, as a drg I am doing more damage than the tank and healer individually. But like you said, If you take the damage done by both healer and tank, they will combine deal more dps than the dragoon. But my thread is about hitting 3 targets and thus effectively doubling my DPS. But because their individual base damage for both is less that mine, my damage multiplied by two will ALWAYSbe greater than their DPS combines.

my drag has a DPS of 100.
random tank has a DPS of 99.
random healer has a DPS of 99.
~Total of all three added is 298 DPS.

is greater than

my drag has a DPS of 200 (100x2).
random tank has a DPS of 0 (99x0).
random healer has a DPS of 0 (99X0).
~Total of all three added is 200 DPS.

x2 != +200%

You are stating facts to support your opinion trying to force me to say you are right when I've never said that you are necessarily wrong. Only situationally wrong.

[ShinigamiB06]

snip

if i have an opinion, and i am supporting it with facts, is my opinion really an opinion or is it a fact? And you may not have explicitly said that I was wrong, but I made the argument that DRG should be using AoE's and this entire time you have been arguing against it. that is just a subtle way of saying im wrong.

and the example you quoted, you took out of context. I think it is pretty obvious that the difference in DPS between DRG and healer/tank will never be 1%. furthermore i also stated above that the DPS of a tank and healer would not drop to zero. Would it drop? Yeah definitely. But not to 0%. I would say worst case scenario it would drop to 50%

[thealphafirm]

What I learned from this thread: People have differing opinions on whether maximum dps of the individual > maximum efficiency of party, "facts" try to be made without real, in-game numbers provided, EasyModeX thinks he's the shit when clearly he's just coming off as a dick.

Did I miss anything?

[Swick]

and the example you quoted, you took out of context. I think it is pretty obvious that the difference in DPS between DRG and healer/tank will never be 1%. furthermore i also stated above that the DPS of a tank and healer would not drop to zero. Would it drop? Yeah definitely. But not to 0%. I would say worst case scenario it would drop to 50%

Your also assuming Tanks/Healers have no AoEs of their own. And truthfully the DPS difference between a DPS and a healer is only ~20% believe it or not, idk about for a tank. While Aoeing is the best way to increase your dps specifically, it could lower the DPS of the group as a whole. It all really comes down to the skill level of your group. If you AoEing is causing problems with aggro, or whether or not your healer even bothers to DPS in their down time. Ect ect.

[EasymodeX]

...might want to read those statements in context since you apparently completely missed the point I was making.

You might want to understand the logic of what you said and what I said.

I'll re-summarize to make it easy:

- If a DRG switching to AOE is a problem, thus meeting the condition for your argument to exist in any capacity, then
- The components of your argument (healer AOE DPS) are completely invalid for group stability

Hence your argument is incoherent. As I stated, the healer is not dropping Holy if the tank's threat sucks to the point that a DRG AOE rotation will cause the tank/healer to all of a sudden have to play defensively.