SUMMONER, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE OR ADD? (EVOLUTION & STAT ALLOCATION)

[DistraughtKoala]

I just want to hit aetherflow and not have to worry that I won't get stacks...

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

Because a healer is defined by heals, status removal and cooldowns. SCH inherits Physic from ACN and gets their heal mechanics via the fairy, not mentioning they gain two abilities per leveling milestone since they get one and the fairy gets one too. The chief difference is opportunity cost (WHM works the same way in this regard as well), because a SCH in cleric stance spamming dots is more likely to neglect keeping the tank alive and before you know it the group has wiped.

DPS works differently in the case of ACN => SMN because the framework for a DPS class is already there, and it wouldn't make sense to have SMN entirely ignore that framework (not to mention if they had designed SMN to ignore the DoT framework, the SMNs that would use the pet prime mechanic AND the DoT framework would be overpowered).
It's not that simple. ACN's mechanics directly carry over into SMN and simply gimping the DoTs would be a terrible way to go about it. Not to mention that with the current pet AI, SMN would suffer a lot more than you realize.
The "skill" argument in disguise. You'd repeat the issue we're seeing with MNKs in that 9 times out of 10 you get a mediocre MNK rather than one that can truly push his DPS to the limit, to the point the masses would start thinking MNKs are generally bad.
Having a little sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork appear before the damage numbers pop up is no different than 16-bit fire particles appear before the damage numbers pop up. Up until FFX came along, summoning and black magic did the exact same thing.
And the underlying point I've tried to make yet you completely miss is that something's gotta give.

As much as I hate to bring this up, I could bang a drum and demand SE to make a generalist Red Mage instead of the DPS with utility in my signature. Except that I know a generalist cannot work in an MMORPG and that copy-pasting FFI's Red Mage into this game would repeat the disaster that took place when they tried that in FFXI. So I understand what parts of the job concept need to be entirely dropped and/or heavily modified in order for it to actually work in a way that'll make sense within the context of the game in question over hammering on a point/demand that is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and thus a waste of time for both of us. You for wasting time trying to argue for SE to effectively redesign arcanist and SCH (because changes to ACN WILL affect SCH on some level), and me for trying to bring some common sense into the discussion.

It's not as simple as changing values and damage modifiers. There's stuff under the hood that would have to change in order for the current design to give you what you supposedly want. Trust me, I would rather have a summoner whose egi's appeared off their back like the Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and whose actions compliment the Summoner's own. At the same time, I understand the foundation they used with ACN and having SMN built off it the way it currently is makes sense.

Not that simple? Trait for summoner: "Power of primals", summoner loses 15-20-35 or whatever % of damage to enpower his pet by 20-25-40% of its damage.

Sorry but the JOB is supposed to change the way class behaves, like blue mage actually attacked in melee, I don't get why I'm not supposed to attack through my pet, it's just your idea that is not possible.

The AI is terrible? No problem, they should improve it, but this is obvious from the start, we all agree on it.

And summoning did not do the same thing anyway: summons hitted all targets by the way, without damage reduction. Also, they are much more powerful than their black magic counterpart. Summoning was like "hey, I'm going to own you!", now it feels like I don't have a summon at all (I forget about it sometimes, because my damage is really high lol).
I should be "scared" of not having a summon out, while I can also forget of not having it or I don't even care of taking it out again on last phase of titan.
This is really bad, completely.

And lastly, there are tons of mmo that based on some talent/subclass/whatever change the class it behaves ENTIRELY (think about guild wars weapons, which makes you a ranged dps or a melee dps), if we should stay on the "framework" of our original class, means that all future jobs will be similar to the classes we already have. Basically you are saying this game is doomed from the beginning. New jobs all similar with different graphics? That's the most boring thing I've ever seen, with no character customization at all (skill/talent), if they don't improve the jobs and the fact that they heavily difference each other, this game will end much more early than you can think of.

But I don't think SE is stupid, they know that jobs must differs heavily from the class, the future jobs will differ a lot from current class.

Yea the game is balanced because all classes are the same, this is really sad to say.
Actually the game is alive because encounters are well done.

I just want to hit aetherflow and not have to worry that I won't get stacks...

Lol yea, that would be lovely =P

[Duelle]

Not that simple? Trait for summoner: "Power of primals", summoner loses 15-20-35 or whatever % of damage to enpower his pet by 20-25-40% of its damage.

The concept of ability spread and pet utility is lost on you, so I'll simply say you're not looking at this from the correct angle.

Sorry but the JOB is supposed to change the way class behaves, like blue mage actually attacked in melee, I don't get why I'm not supposed to attack through my pet, it's just your idea that is not possible.

What I meant by mentioning BLU was that you could make XIV's version of Blue Mage wear animal skins and use a rubber chicken as a primary weapon and it'll still be a blue mage if its spell list has known monster skills that cost MP. Much like how Summoner here summons egis based on the primals that compliment the DoT DPS model.

And summoning did not do the same thing anyway: summons hitted all targets by the way, without damage reduction. Also, they are much more powerful than their black magic counterpart.

It's attack magic at its core, and as I've said the only thing that was different is that you had a sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork to go with the numbers that popped up on the screen instead of a particle effect.

And lastly, there are tons of mmo that based on some talent/subclass/whatever change the class it behaves ENTIRELY (think about guild wars weapons, which makes you a ranged dps or a melee dps), if we should stay on the "framework" of our original class, means that all future jobs will be similar to the classes we already have.

You mean like how PLD is built on the foundation of GLA and within the tanking framework? Or how BLM is built on the long rage magic DPS framework of THM? Or how WHM is built on the healer framework of CNJ?

The precedent is already there, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed it. ACN shows a very possible side of the devs' design philosophy as well as how classes relate to their jobs, as well as the approach they may take moving forward for current classes with only on job as well as new classes and their respective jobs. And in case you still don't get it, that means one job will use the class' framework and role while another will either take a different approach to the same role or take up an entirely different role.

Yea the game is balanced because all classes are the same, this is really sad to say.

If you actually believe this then you're no better than the people that throw common sense to the wind for the sake of being different.

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

The concept of ability spread and pet utility is lost on you, so I'll simply say you're not looking at this from the correct angle.
What I meant by mentioning BLU was that you could make XIV's version of Blue Mage wear animal skins and use a rubber chicken as a primary weapon and it'll still be a blue mage if its spell list has known monster skills that cost MP. Much like how Summoner here summons egis based on the primals that compliment the DoT DPS model.
It's attack magic at its core, and as I've said the only thing that was different is that you had a sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork to go with the numbers that popped up on the screen instead of a particle effect.
You mean like how PLD is built on the foundation of GLA and within the tanking framework? Or how BLM is built on the long rage magic DPS framework of THM? Or how WHM is built on the healer framework of CNJ?

The precedent is already there, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed it. ACN shows a very possible side of the devs' design philosophy as well as how classes relate to their jobs, as well as the approach they may take moving forward for current classes with only on job as well as new classes and their respective jobs. And in case you still don't get it, that means one job will use the class' framework and role while another will either take a different approach to the same role or take up an entirely different role.
If you actually believe this then you're no better than the people that throw common sense to the wind for the sake of being different.

Again, the logic behind what is doing SE it's not necessary what WE want from the game, I don't expect to design the game by myself and SE do exactly it, I expect the game be changed based on what the community is asking.
Based on this topic (26 pages), I must suppose that there are A LOT of summoners not satisfact (not to mention that any summoner I've talked to in-game is completely unsatisfact of its class).

Secondary, the implementation of the BLU mage in FFXIV can be ok: melee, learning abilities from monsters. The truth is that for summoner they have chosen the worst summon implementation, the XII one (or somewhat similar).
When I summon Ifrit I feel like summoning a pokemon, not a summon.

Also, the summoner as you told feels like a "complement" to the arcanist class, I think this is definitely not ok: the description of the summoner is completely different and let you imagine a completely different thing.
That being said, Arcanist is definitely not a fun class to play: you place your pet, apply 3 debuffs and spam ruin. This repeated 'till death (of you or the mob vs you). Again, Arcanist is not weak (neither the summoner).

That being said, we have only one class with 2 jobs so the philosophy you are describing can't be confirmed in any way.
I don't expect they should completely destroy balance, I do expect they balance fun with "class balance". This is not done for arcanist (and summoner), being a really boring class in late game.
Also we were supposed to have the job, a secondary job AND the class itself which should have been useful because it had access to multiple skills. Obviously this last thing don't even exist and we have been definitely trolled with this "fake secondary skill selection" (they are pre-selected basically, for any job).

I don't expect they make something like GW2 where each class can be completely different between each spec.
I do expect job to be well designed, a change from your original class which is still supposed to be useful once they fix this terrible secondary system (they had a great idea and they threw it to wind, not using it at all).

I don't get, did you play arcanist (and summoner)? Can you really tell me << it's fun to play with arcanist >> ?
You come here with good explaination, but you don't see that basically there are a lot of people complaining because the summoner not only is really boring as it is now, but it doesn't reflect what they expected from the description (like I could have known that summoner is basically an arcanist with other graphics! The scholar is completely different).

Can you blame me for that? Really, the job description does not reflect at all what I'm doing in game.