SUMMONER, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE OR ADD? (EVOLUTION & STAT ALLOCATION)

[Engineer]

You mean aside from it being based off a DoT class? SCH doesn't use some of the ACN spells since their role is healing, not DPS, and they need to focus on that in the content that matters. SMN, as it turns out, is DPS, and as such the majority of the ACN abilities do play a bigger role for SMN than SCH.

You just proved my point. If SCH comes off of a "DOT" class and be a healer, why cant Summoner come off a "DOT" class and be a full fledged pet class?

all SE needs to do is swap some numbers around when equipping the Summoner Job Stone.

Which doesn't work in an MMORPG. Much less in a modern MMORPG with a faster combat system.

Of course it does, why cant it? This doesnt make sense.

Im very capable of controlling 2 things in a fast paced game, its not that hard.

You hit some abilities on your character that your pet does, and some abilities on your character that your character does, whats so hard in that? other classes are utilizing the same amount of commands.

We just need the pet to do way more damage than the master, and change fester to involve the pet.

False. Rydia had black magic with fancier graphics. Garnet had black magic with fancier graphics that lasted close to two minutes before the damage was even calculated. Yuna's aeons replaced the party until the end of the battle or the aeon died. FFT's summoner was once again black magic with fancier graphics. FFXI's summoner had gimped pets that were laughably weak and had costly upkeep.

Your wrong, they Summon a creature to come in and attack.

This whole Black Magic with fancier graphics is the silliest thing ive heard lol. They SUMMON.

FFXI Summoner wasnt good early on, because the devs didnt know how to balance, but being good and being a SUMMONER are 2 different things.

These points your trying to make shows how much your misunderstanding what people are saying. They are saying they like how in all FF games the Summoner was all about Summoning and had to perform through their Summons to damage


But, you decide to only hear that they are comparing old FF Summoner with XIV. SO you are trying to make a counter argument on something that is totally different than what people are saying.

Sooooo, your wrong because you were off topic. We are just trying to say Summoner has always been about its Summons, and XIV summoner isnt.

There is some variety in interpretation, and much like Blue Mages you don't lose ANY of the job's identity so long as the elements are there (Monster skills as magic for BLU, Ifrit, Titan, etc. for SMN).

We dont have ifrit, Titan, etc. we have little Egi elementals. XIV summoner doesnt have the Summoner identity since it doesnt focus on summoning.

You've already admitted that pet classes are hard to balance, and I supplied the other half of that equation because the more you put on the pet, the harder it is to balance said class. You'd go back to throwing darts on a board and hoping you end up with something not broken and not OP.

No i didnt admit it was hard to balance, but i would rather have a weak "real" summoner than an Arcane Mage/warlock in a summoner costume.

It shouldnt be hard to balance, all they need to do is switch numbers around so the pet can deal the damage.

easy to balance, these guys are experts. Balance was hard in XI because they tried to make them all tanks as well as be Dps pets. In XIV titan is the tank, while garuda is the low HP DD etc. It will be balanced.

Because it is built on the framework of a class that is focused on DoTs with a pet providing additional firepower. Given the design philosophy and the correlation between classes and their respective jobs, the design makes sense.

Then why was SCH able to shift from DOTS?

By equipping the Job stone stats should change around to make the pet hold 80% of the Dps.

[Duelle]

You just proved my point. If SCH comes off of a "DOT" class and be a healer, why cant Summoner come off a "DOT" class and be a full fledged pet class?

Because a healer is defined by heals, status removal and cooldowns. SCH inherits Physic from ACN and gets their heal mechanics via the fairy, not mentioning they gain two abilities per leveling milestone since they get one and the fairy gets one too. The chief difference is opportunity cost (WHM works the same way in this regard as well), because a SCH in cleric stance spamming dots is more likely to neglect keeping the tank alive and before you know it the group has wiped.

DPS works differently in the case of ACN => SMN because the framework for a DPS class is already there, and it wouldn't make sense to have SMN entirely ignore that framework (not to mention if they had designed SMN to ignore the DoT framework, the SMNs that would use the pet prime mechanic AND the DoT framework would be overpowered).

all SE needs to do is swap some numbers around when equipping the Summoner Job Stone.

It's not that simple. ACN's mechanics directly carry over into SMN and simply gimping the DoTs would be a terrible way to go about it. Not to mention that with the current pet AI, SMN would suffer a lot more than you realize.

Of course it does, why cant it? This doesnt make sense.

Im very capable of controlling 2 things in a fast paced game, its not that hard.

The "skill" argument in disguise. You'd repeat the issue we're seeing with MNKs in that 9 times out of 10 you get a mediocre MNK rather than one that can truly push his DPS to the limit, to the point the masses would start thinking MNKs are generally bad.

This whole Black Magic with fancier graphics is the silliest thing ive heard lol. They SUMMON.

Having a little sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork appear before the damage numbers pop up is no different than 16-bit fire particles appear before the damage numbers pop up. Up until FFX came along, summoning and black magic did the exact same thing.

These points your trying to make shows how much your misunderstanding what people are saying. They are saying they like how in all FF games the Summoner was all about Summoning and had to perform through their Summons to damage

And the underlying point I've tried to make yet you completely miss is that something's gotta give.

As much as I hate to bring this up, I could bang a drum and demand SE to make a generalist Red Mage instead of the DPS with utility in my signature. Except that I know a generalist cannot work in an MMORPG and that copy-pasting FFI's Red Mage into this game would repeat the disaster that took place when they tried that in FFXI. So I understand what parts of the job concept need to be entirely dropped and/or heavily modified in order for it to actually work in a way that'll make sense within the context of the game in question over hammering on a point/demand that is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and thus a waste of time for both of us. You for wasting time trying to argue for SE to effectively redesign arcanist and SCH (because changes to ACN WILL affect SCH on some level), and me for trying to bring some common sense into the discussion.

It's not as simple as changing values and damage modifiers. There's stuff under the hood that would have to change in order for the current design to give you what you supposedly want. Trust me, I would rather have a summoner whose egi's appeared off their back like the Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and whose actions compliment the Summoner's own. At the same time, I understand the foundation they used with ACN and having SMN built off it the way it currently is makes sense.

[DistraughtKoala]

I just want to hit aetherflow and not have to worry that I won't get stacks...

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

Because a healer is defined by heals, status removal and cooldowns. SCH inherits Physic from ACN and gets their heal mechanics via the fairy, not mentioning they gain two abilities per leveling milestone since they get one and the fairy gets one too. The chief difference is opportunity cost (WHM works the same way in this regard as well), because a SCH in cleric stance spamming dots is more likely to neglect keeping the tank alive and before you know it the group has wiped.

DPS works differently in the case of ACN => SMN because the framework for a DPS class is already there, and it wouldn't make sense to have SMN entirely ignore that framework (not to mention if they had designed SMN to ignore the DoT framework, the SMNs that would use the pet prime mechanic AND the DoT framework would be overpowered).
It's not that simple. ACN's mechanics directly carry over into SMN and simply gimping the DoTs would be a terrible way to go about it. Not to mention that with the current pet AI, SMN would suffer a lot more than you realize.
The "skill" argument in disguise. You'd repeat the issue we're seeing with MNKs in that 9 times out of 10 you get a mediocre MNK rather than one that can truly push his DPS to the limit, to the point the masses would start thinking MNKs are generally bad.
Having a little sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork appear before the damage numbers pop up is no different than 16-bit fire particles appear before the damage numbers pop up. Up until FFX came along, summoning and black magic did the exact same thing.
And the underlying point I've tried to make yet you completely miss is that something's gotta give.

As much as I hate to bring this up, I could bang a drum and demand SE to make a generalist Red Mage instead of the DPS with utility in my signature. Except that I know a generalist cannot work in an MMORPG and that copy-pasting FFI's Red Mage into this game would repeat the disaster that took place when they tried that in FFXI. So I understand what parts of the job concept need to be entirely dropped and/or heavily modified in order for it to actually work in a way that'll make sense within the context of the game in question over hammering on a point/demand that is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and thus a waste of time for both of us. You for wasting time trying to argue for SE to effectively redesign arcanist and SCH (because changes to ACN WILL affect SCH on some level), and me for trying to bring some common sense into the discussion.

It's not as simple as changing values and damage modifiers. There's stuff under the hood that would have to change in order for the current design to give you what you supposedly want. Trust me, I would rather have a summoner whose egi's appeared off their back like the Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and whose actions compliment the Summoner's own. At the same time, I understand the foundation they used with ACN and having SMN built off it the way it currently is makes sense.

Not that simple? Trait for summoner: "Power of primals", summoner loses 15-20-35 or whatever % of damage to enpower his pet by 20-25-40% of its damage.

Sorry but the JOB is supposed to change the way class behaves, like blue mage actually attacked in melee, I don't get why I'm not supposed to attack through my pet, it's just your idea that is not possible.

The AI is terrible? No problem, they should improve it, but this is obvious from the start, we all agree on it.

And summoning did not do the same thing anyway: summons hitted all targets by the way, without damage reduction. Also, they are much more powerful than their black magic counterpart. Summoning was like "hey, I'm going to own you!", now it feels like I don't have a summon at all (I forget about it sometimes, because my damage is really high lol).
I should be "scared" of not having a summon out, while I can also forget of not having it or I don't even care of taking it out again on last phase of titan.
This is really bad, completely.

And lastly, there are tons of mmo that based on some talent/subclass/whatever change the class it behaves ENTIRELY (think about guild wars weapons, which makes you a ranged dps or a melee dps), if we should stay on the "framework" of our original class, means that all future jobs will be similar to the classes we already have. Basically you are saying this game is doomed from the beginning. New jobs all similar with different graphics? That's the most boring thing I've ever seen, with no character customization at all (skill/talent), if they don't improve the jobs and the fact that they heavily difference each other, this game will end much more early than you can think of.

But I don't think SE is stupid, they know that jobs must differs heavily from the class, the future jobs will differ a lot from current class.

Yea the game is balanced because all classes are the same, this is really sad to say.
Actually the game is alive because encounters are well done.

I just want to hit aetherflow and not have to worry that I won't get stacks...

Lol yea, that would be lovely =P

[Duelle]

Not that simple? Trait for summoner: "Power of primals", summoner loses 15-20-35 or whatever % of damage to enpower his pet by 20-25-40% of its damage.

The concept of ability spread and pet utility is lost on you, so I'll simply say you're not looking at this from the correct angle.

Sorry but the JOB is supposed to change the way class behaves, like blue mage actually attacked in melee, I don't get why I'm not supposed to attack through my pet, it's just your idea that is not possible.

What I meant by mentioning BLU was that you could make XIV's version of Blue Mage wear animal skins and use a rubber chicken as a primary weapon and it'll still be a blue mage if its spell list has known monster skills that cost MP. Much like how Summoner here summons egis based on the primals that compliment the DoT DPS model.

And summoning did not do the same thing anyway: summons hitted all targets by the way, without damage reduction. Also, they are much more powerful than their black magic counterpart.

It's attack magic at its core, and as I've said the only thing that was different is that you had a sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork to go with the numbers that popped up on the screen instead of a particle effect.

And lastly, there are tons of mmo that based on some talent/subclass/whatever change the class it behaves ENTIRELY (think about guild wars weapons, which makes you a ranged dps or a melee dps), if we should stay on the "framework" of our original class, means that all future jobs will be similar to the classes we already have.

You mean like how PLD is built on the foundation of GLA and within the tanking framework? Or how BLM is built on the long rage magic DPS framework of THM? Or how WHM is built on the healer framework of CNJ?

The precedent is already there, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed it. ACN shows a very possible side of the devs' design philosophy as well as how classes relate to their jobs, as well as the approach they may take moving forward for current classes with only on job as well as new classes and their respective jobs. And in case you still don't get it, that means one job will use the class' framework and role while another will either take a different approach to the same role or take up an entirely different role.

Yea the game is balanced because all classes are the same, this is really sad to say.

If you actually believe this then you're no better than the people that throw common sense to the wind for the sake of being different.

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

The concept of ability spread and pet utility is lost on you, so I'll simply say you're not looking at this from the correct angle.
What I meant by mentioning BLU was that you could make XIV's version of Blue Mage wear animal skins and use a rubber chicken as a primary weapon and it'll still be a blue mage if its spell list has known monster skills that cost MP. Much like how Summoner here summons egis based on the primals that compliment the DoT DPS model.
It's attack magic at its core, and as I've said the only thing that was different is that you had a sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork to go with the numbers that popped up on the screen instead of a particle effect.
You mean like how PLD is built on the foundation of GLA and within the tanking framework? Or how BLM is built on the long rage magic DPS framework of THM? Or how WHM is built on the healer framework of CNJ?

The precedent is already there, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed it. ACN shows a very possible side of the devs' design philosophy as well as how classes relate to their jobs, as well as the approach they may take moving forward for current classes with only on job as well as new classes and their respective jobs. And in case you still don't get it, that means one job will use the class' framework and role while another will either take a different approach to the same role or take up an entirely different role.
If you actually believe this then you're no better than the people that throw common sense to the wind for the sake of being different.

Again, the logic behind what is doing SE it's not necessary what WE want from the game, I don't expect to design the game by myself and SE do exactly it, I expect the game be changed based on what the community is asking.
Based on this topic (26 pages), I must suppose that there are A LOT of summoners not satisfact (not to mention that any summoner I've talked to in-game is completely unsatisfact of its class).

Secondary, the implementation of the BLU mage in FFXIV can be ok: melee, learning abilities from monsters. The truth is that for summoner they have chosen the worst summon implementation, the XII one (or somewhat similar).
When I summon Ifrit I feel like summoning a pokemon, not a summon.

Also, the summoner as you told feels like a "complement" to the arcanist class, I think this is definitely not ok: the description of the summoner is completely different and let you imagine a completely different thing.
That being said, Arcanist is definitely not a fun class to play: you place your pet, apply 3 debuffs and spam ruin. This repeated 'till death (of you or the mob vs you). Again, Arcanist is not weak (neither the summoner).

That being said, we have only one class with 2 jobs so the philosophy you are describing can't be confirmed in any way.
I don't expect they should completely destroy balance, I do expect they balance fun with "class balance". This is not done for arcanist (and summoner), being a really boring class in late game.
Also we were supposed to have the job, a secondary job AND the class itself which should have been useful because it had access to multiple skills. Obviously this last thing don't even exist and we have been definitely trolled with this "fake secondary skill selection" (they are pre-selected basically, for any job).

I don't expect they make something like GW2 where each class can be completely different between each spec.
I do expect job to be well designed, a change from your original class which is still supposed to be useful once they fix this terrible secondary system (they had a great idea and they threw it to wind, not using it at all).

I don't get, did you play arcanist (and summoner)? Can you really tell me << it's fun to play with arcanist >> ?
You come here with good explaination, but you don't see that basically there are a lot of people complaining because the summoner not only is really boring as it is now, but it doesn't reflect what they expected from the description (like I could have known that summoner is basically an arcanist with other graphics! The scholar is completely different).

Can you blame me for that? Really, the job description does not reflect at all what I'm doing in game.

[Engineer]

Because a healer is defined by heals, status removal and cooldowns. SCH inherits Physic from ACN and gets their heal mechanics via the fairy, not mentioning they gain two abilities per leveling milestone since they get one and the fairy gets one too. The chief difference is opportunity cost (WHM works the same way in this regard as well), because a SCH in cleric stance spamming dots is more likely to neglect keeping the tank alive and before you know it the group has wiped.


DPS works differently in the case of ACN => SMN because the framework for a DPS class is already there, and it wouldn't make sense to have SMN entirely ignore that framework (not to mention if they had designed SMN to ignore the DoT framework, the SMNs that would use the pet prime mechanic AND the DoT framework would be overpowered).

Maybe the changes need to start at the base of the class while not effecting SCH. Maybe SE will release a 3rd job for Arcanist that utilizes the DOTs so Summoner can focus on pets. I Dunno


But...Im not getting paid to figure it out, all i know is it should be changed to reflect a Final Fantasy Summoner, and not a Warlock.

Having a little sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork appear before the damage numbers pop up is no different than 16-bit fire particles appear before the damage numbers pop up. Up until FFX came along, summoning and black magic did the exact same thing.

The only similarity is they Damage the enemy. They Summon.... They might not stay in the world, but they call beings to unleash havoc on their enemies. Lore Wins.

But again Off topic.

And the underlying point I've tried to make yet you completely miss is that something's gotta give.

As much as I hate to bring this up, I could bang a drum and demand SE to make a generalist Red Mage instead of the DPS with utility in my signature. Except that I know a generalist cannot work in an MMORPG and that copy-pasting FFI's Red Mage into this game would repeat the disaster that took place when they tried that in FFXI. So I understand what parts of the job concept need to be entirely dropped and/or heavily modified in order for it to actually work in a way that'll make sense within the context of the game in question over hammering on a point/demand that is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and thus a waste of time for both of us. You for wasting time trying to argue for SE to effectively redesign arcanist and SCH (because changes to ACN WILL affect SCH on some level), and me for trying to bring some common sense into the discussion.

It's not as simple as changing values and damage modifiers. There's stuff under the hood that would have to change in order for the current design to give you what you supposedly want. Trust me, I would rather have a summoner whose egi's appeared off their back like the Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and whose actions compliment the Summoner's own. At the same time, I understand the foundation they used with ACN and having SMN built off it the way it currently is makes sense.

Then Why call it Summoner? Why did they tarnish Summoners name if nothing can be done?

At the end of the day, this was SE design choice to make Summoner use Dots for its main Dps, and little cute Egi.

If it was me i would have done

Arcanist (No Pets)--->Scholar/Arcane Mage
Evoker (Elementals)----->Summoner/Necromancer

This would be more Final Fantasy.

Can you really blame people who just want to play a Final Fantasy Summoner?

PS. Red Mage was Amazing, it was just abused by the community because of 1 good spell, just like ninja was. FFXIV Summoner was a design choice not a victim of abuse by the community.

[Aikune7]

The Bank/retainer system is kinda clunky and limits players from doing certain things like leveling different professions at the same time.

Its not a space issue really its just the fact that interacting with the retainers is so tedious. You have to click the little bell and click again and again and wait for your dude to show up and the kicker is that only 1 tab of your bank opens up and you have file threw all your tabs one at a time which in turn make is very time consuming to sort out your gear. If you have a second retainer this only increases the frustration.

If you spilt an item that your retainer is holding it goes back into your bank somewhere and it does not held on your cursor. The really annoying thing about this is that the spilt item goes back into your bank and so many items share icons that you have to look threw all those tabs one at a time again.

Hold on i want to continue this but apparently i can only have 100o words

[Aikune7]

*continued from above*

It would be a lot easier if more than one bag tab could be opened up so even if the split item when back into your retainer back you could see where it filled up the vacant space. Also i think some sort of way to separate the process of retainer items holding and selling could be put into 2 different summoning bells or just being able to tell the retainer to sell the item from the same tab as you giving or taking items from your retainer or something along those lines.

I wanted to make a whole thread about this but apparently i am not high enough level to, maybe because i spend so much time interacting with the banking system instead of playing the game.

How does other people feel about this, i would like to see the thread about it.

[Miiu]

@Aikune7 Dunno what your post has to do with this topic and if you edit your post after you have submitted it you can go over 1000 words.