SUMMONER, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE OR ADD? (EVOLUTION & STAT ALLOCATION)

[Duelle]

Scholar is also designed from the Arcanist base, but still has healing as its main. Why cant Summoner have Summoning as its main and dots second?

You mean aside from it being based off a DoT class? SCH doesn't use some of the ACN spells since their role is healing, not DPS, and they need to focus on that in the content that matters. SMN, as it turns out, is DPS, and as such the majority of the ACN abilities do play a bigger role for SMN than SCH.

the Traditional Summoner gameplay

Which doesn't work in an MMORPG. Much less in a modern MMORPG with a faster combat system.

which was all about the Pets, and using the Pets to deal the Damage

False. Rydia had black magic with fancier graphics. Garnet had black magic with fancier graphics that lasted close to two minutes before the damage was even calculated. Yuna's aeons replaced the party until the end of the battle or the aeon died. FFT's summoner was once again black magic with fancier graphics. FFXI's summoner had gimped pets that were laughably weak and had costly upkeep.

There is some variety in interpretation, and much like Blue Mages you don't lose ANY of the job's identity so long as the elements are there (Monster skills as magic for BLU, Ifrit, Titan, etc. for SMN).

The pets were the Main focus of the class, and should be since its called Summoner.

You've already admitted that pet classes are hard to balance, and I supplied the other half of that equation because the more you put on the pet, the harder it is to balance said class. You'd go back to throwing darts on a board and hoping you end up with something not broken and not OP.

While Summoner (XIV) doesnt perform through its Summoning to deal all the damage. Instead deals its damage through Dots that comes from the master.

Because it is built on the framework of a class that is focused on DoTs with a pet providing additional firepower. Given the design philosophy and the correlation between classes and their respective jobs, the design makes sense.

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

one more time people need to think a bit more before ask for the impossible.

Summoner have 5 skill, you will need to wait a raise in level for see more of this jobs.
other point a class that rely only on pet in an mmorpg is bound to be useless in endgame content.

other point, the smn have a more complicate gameplay than blm or brd. people only see the dot cycle, but you can doo so much more than this.

You mean aside from it being based off a DoT class? SCH doesn't use some of the ACN spells since their role is healing, not DPS, and they need to focus on that in the content that matters. SMN, as it turns out, is DPS, and as such the majority of the ACN abilities do play a bigger role for SMN than SCH.
Which doesn't work in an MMORPG. Much less in a modern MMORPG with a faster combat system.
False. Rydia had black magic with fancier graphics. Garnet had black magic with fancier graphics that lasted close to two minutes before the damage was even calculated. Yuna's aeons replaced the party until the end of the battle or the aeon died. FFT's summoner was once again black magic with fancier graphics. FFXI's summoner had gimped pets that were laughably weak and had costly upkeep.

There is some variety in interpretation, and much like Blue Mages you don't lose ANY of the job's identity so long as the elements are there (Monster skills as magic for BLU, Ifrit, Titan, etc. for SMN).
You've already admitted that pet classes are hard to balance, and I supplied the other half of that equation because the more you put on the pet, the harder it is to balance said class. You'd go back to throwing darts on a board and hoping you end up with something not broken and not OP.
Because it is built on the framework of a class that is focused on DoTs with a pet providing additional firepower. Given the design philosophy and the correlation between classes and their respective jobs, the design makes sense.

Ok let's stop this "it's hard to balance the pet".
They are PROFESSIONAL designer so they will make sure that this is possible, I'm sure they can.

In FFX summons replaced the entire party and they were entirely different entities (special action, limit break, spells, stats and I don't remember what else), that was GREAT.
Summoner is just as you said "a dotter with additional firepower from pet": LOL this is just the most horrible thing out there.
I have a SUMMONER, I repeat, a SUMMONER: something that summon things, and their main focus are... DOTS! Call it a DOTTER next time -.-'

The summoner "hard to balance if pet-focused" IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE, this is a game done by professional, paid monthly so I expect TOP SERVICE here.
The summoner design IS FLAWED and MUST be fixed, the pet are merely some fancy graphics there, you have no point in having a pet outside.

Yuna when not summoning had all healing spells + holy for some additional damage, but basically without summons she wasn't dealing good damages.

AND NO THE ARCANIST IS NOT FOCUSED ON DOT!

Adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas. Held within occult grimoires, these symbols lend shape to the arcanist's aether, thereby allowing him to produce myriad powerful spells.
Using the selfsame symbols to unlock the latent power contained within gemstones, arcanists are also able to summon forth the familiar known as Carbuncle to carry out their bidding.

They are mentioning spells (random) and summons. NO DOTS.

But now here it is the most interesting part, summoner description:
"The beast tribes of Eorzea worship and summon forth beings known as primals, among which are Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Yet what is a god to one man is a demon to another, for the city-states of Eorzea see these beings as a grave threat to their collective survival.
In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages."

Not only they don't mention ANYTHING ELSE, they are basically describing the summons as the CORE of this class! NO DOTS, again.
This is what I expected from the job.

And again "Which doesn't work in an MMORPG. Much less in a modern MMORPG with a faster combat system." it's speculation, they can make a good pet-based class now that you can move your pet while casting, it will be HARDER to handle, but that's not bad.

I would have preferred a "black magic with fancier graphics" instead of the ugly thing we have today. The summoner is nice only because of their quest (you have to defeat the egis).
So stop saying "summoner is good as is", there is a 25 pages topic about a class that is OK in damage, everyone stated that, but we are still complaining because IS SO BORING that we can't survive this gameplay.

[Engineer]

You mean aside from it being based off a DoT class? SCH doesn't use some of the ACN spells since their role is healing, not DPS, and they need to focus on that in the content that matters. SMN, as it turns out, is DPS, and as such the majority of the ACN abilities do play a bigger role for SMN than SCH.

You just proved my point. If SCH comes off of a "DOT" class and be a healer, why cant Summoner come off a "DOT" class and be a full fledged pet class?

all SE needs to do is swap some numbers around when equipping the Summoner Job Stone.

Which doesn't work in an MMORPG. Much less in a modern MMORPG with a faster combat system.

Of course it does, why cant it? This doesnt make sense.

Im very capable of controlling 2 things in a fast paced game, its not that hard.

You hit some abilities on your character that your pet does, and some abilities on your character that your character does, whats so hard in that? other classes are utilizing the same amount of commands.

We just need the pet to do way more damage than the master, and change fester to involve the pet.

False. Rydia had black magic with fancier graphics. Garnet had black magic with fancier graphics that lasted close to two minutes before the damage was even calculated. Yuna's aeons replaced the party until the end of the battle or the aeon died. FFT's summoner was once again black magic with fancier graphics. FFXI's summoner had gimped pets that were laughably weak and had costly upkeep.

Your wrong, they Summon a creature to come in and attack.

This whole Black Magic with fancier graphics is the silliest thing ive heard lol. They SUMMON.

FFXI Summoner wasnt good early on, because the devs didnt know how to balance, but being good and being a SUMMONER are 2 different things.

These points your trying to make shows how much your misunderstanding what people are saying. They are saying they like how in all FF games the Summoner was all about Summoning and had to perform through their Summons to damage


But, you decide to only hear that they are comparing old FF Summoner with XIV. SO you are trying to make a counter argument on something that is totally different than what people are saying.

Sooooo, your wrong because you were off topic. We are just trying to say Summoner has always been about its Summons, and XIV summoner isnt.

There is some variety in interpretation, and much like Blue Mages you don't lose ANY of the job's identity so long as the elements are there (Monster skills as magic for BLU, Ifrit, Titan, etc. for SMN).

We dont have ifrit, Titan, etc. we have little Egi elementals. XIV summoner doesnt have the Summoner identity since it doesnt focus on summoning.

You've already admitted that pet classes are hard to balance, and I supplied the other half of that equation because the more you put on the pet, the harder it is to balance said class. You'd go back to throwing darts on a board and hoping you end up with something not broken and not OP.

No i didnt admit it was hard to balance, but i would rather have a weak "real" summoner than an Arcane Mage/warlock in a summoner costume.

It shouldnt be hard to balance, all they need to do is switch numbers around so the pet can deal the damage.

easy to balance, these guys are experts. Balance was hard in XI because they tried to make them all tanks as well as be Dps pets. In XIV titan is the tank, while garuda is the low HP DD etc. It will be balanced.

Because it is built on the framework of a class that is focused on DoTs with a pet providing additional firepower. Given the design philosophy and the correlation between classes and their respective jobs, the design makes sense.

Then why was SCH able to shift from DOTS?

By equipping the Job stone stats should change around to make the pet hold 80% of the Dps.

[Duelle]

You just proved my point. If SCH comes off of a "DOT" class and be a healer, why cant Summoner come off a "DOT" class and be a full fledged pet class?

Because a healer is defined by heals, status removal and cooldowns. SCH inherits Physic from ACN and gets their heal mechanics via the fairy, not mentioning they gain two abilities per leveling milestone since they get one and the fairy gets one too. The chief difference is opportunity cost (WHM works the same way in this regard as well), because a SCH in cleric stance spamming dots is more likely to neglect keeping the tank alive and before you know it the group has wiped.

DPS works differently in the case of ACN => SMN because the framework for a DPS class is already there, and it wouldn't make sense to have SMN entirely ignore that framework (not to mention if they had designed SMN to ignore the DoT framework, the SMNs that would use the pet prime mechanic AND the DoT framework would be overpowered).

all SE needs to do is swap some numbers around when equipping the Summoner Job Stone.

It's not that simple. ACN's mechanics directly carry over into SMN and simply gimping the DoTs would be a terrible way to go about it. Not to mention that with the current pet AI, SMN would suffer a lot more than you realize.

Of course it does, why cant it? This doesnt make sense.

Im very capable of controlling 2 things in a fast paced game, its not that hard.

The "skill" argument in disguise. You'd repeat the issue we're seeing with MNKs in that 9 times out of 10 you get a mediocre MNK rather than one that can truly push his DPS to the limit, to the point the masses would start thinking MNKs are generally bad.

This whole Black Magic with fancier graphics is the silliest thing ive heard lol. They SUMMON.

Having a little sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork appear before the damage numbers pop up is no different than 16-bit fire particles appear before the damage numbers pop up. Up until FFX came along, summoning and black magic did the exact same thing.

These points your trying to make shows how much your misunderstanding what people are saying. They are saying they like how in all FF games the Summoner was all about Summoning and had to perform through their Summons to damage

And the underlying point I've tried to make yet you completely miss is that something's gotta give.

As much as I hate to bring this up, I could bang a drum and demand SE to make a generalist Red Mage instead of the DPS with utility in my signature. Except that I know a generalist cannot work in an MMORPG and that copy-pasting FFI's Red Mage into this game would repeat the disaster that took place when they tried that in FFXI. So I understand what parts of the job concept need to be entirely dropped and/or heavily modified in order for it to actually work in a way that'll make sense within the context of the game in question over hammering on a point/demand that is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and thus a waste of time for both of us. You for wasting time trying to argue for SE to effectively redesign arcanist and SCH (because changes to ACN WILL affect SCH on some level), and me for trying to bring some common sense into the discussion.

It's not as simple as changing values and damage modifiers. There's stuff under the hood that would have to change in order for the current design to give you what you supposedly want. Trust me, I would rather have a summoner whose egi's appeared off their back like the Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and whose actions compliment the Summoner's own. At the same time, I understand the foundation they used with ACN and having SMN built off it the way it currently is makes sense.

[Engineer]

Because a healer is defined by heals, status removal and cooldowns. SCH inherits Physic from ACN and gets their heal mechanics via the fairy, not mentioning they gain two abilities per leveling milestone since they get one and the fairy gets one too. The chief difference is opportunity cost (WHM works the same way in this regard as well), because a SCH in cleric stance spamming dots is more likely to neglect keeping the tank alive and before you know it the group has wiped.


DPS works differently in the case of ACN => SMN because the framework for a DPS class is already there, and it wouldn't make sense to have SMN entirely ignore that framework (not to mention if they had designed SMN to ignore the DoT framework, the SMNs that would use the pet prime mechanic AND the DoT framework would be overpowered).

Maybe the changes need to start at the base of the class while not effecting SCH. Maybe SE will release a 3rd job for Arcanist that utilizes the DOTs so Summoner can focus on pets. I Dunno


But...Im not getting paid to figure it out, all i know is it should be changed to reflect a Final Fantasy Summoner, and not a Warlock.

Having a little sprite based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork appear before the damage numbers pop up is no different than 16-bit fire particles appear before the damage numbers pop up. Up until FFX came along, summoning and black magic did the exact same thing.

The only similarity is they Damage the enemy. They Summon.... They might not stay in the world, but they call beings to unleash havoc on their enemies. Lore Wins.

But again Off topic.

And the underlying point I've tried to make yet you completely miss is that something's gotta give.

As much as I hate to bring this up, I could bang a drum and demand SE to make a generalist Red Mage instead of the DPS with utility in my signature. Except that I know a generalist cannot work in an MMORPG and that copy-pasting FFI's Red Mage into this game would repeat the disaster that took place when they tried that in FFXI. So I understand what parts of the job concept need to be entirely dropped and/or heavily modified in order for it to actually work in a way that'll make sense within the context of the game in question over hammering on a point/demand that is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and thus a waste of time for both of us. You for wasting time trying to argue for SE to effectively redesign arcanist and SCH (because changes to ACN WILL affect SCH on some level), and me for trying to bring some common sense into the discussion.

It's not as simple as changing values and damage modifiers. There's stuff under the hood that would have to change in order for the current design to give you what you supposedly want. Trust me, I would rather have a summoner whose egi's appeared off their back like the Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and whose actions compliment the Summoner's own. At the same time, I understand the foundation they used with ACN and having SMN built off it the way it currently is makes sense.

Then Why call it Summoner? Why did they tarnish Summoners name if nothing can be done?

At the end of the day, this was SE design choice to make Summoner use Dots for its main Dps, and little cute Egi.

If it was me i would have done

Arcanist (No Pets)--->Scholar/Arcane Mage
Evoker (Elementals)----->Summoner/Necromancer

This would be more Final Fantasy.

Can you really blame people who just want to play a Final Fantasy Summoner?

PS. Red Mage was Amazing, it was just abused by the community because of 1 good spell, just like ninja was. FFXIV Summoner was a design choice not a victim of abuse by the community.

[Aikune7]

The Bank/retainer system is kinda clunky and limits players from doing certain things like leveling different professions at the same time.

Its not a space issue really its just the fact that interacting with the retainers is so tedious. You have to click the little bell and click again and again and wait for your dude to show up and the kicker is that only 1 tab of your bank opens up and you have file threw all your tabs one at a time which in turn make is very time consuming to sort out your gear. If you have a second retainer this only increases the frustration.

If you spilt an item that your retainer is holding it goes back into your bank somewhere and it does not held on your cursor. The really annoying thing about this is that the spilt item goes back into your bank and so many items share icons that you have to look threw all those tabs one at a time again.

Hold on i want to continue this but apparently i can only have 100o words

[Aikune7]

*continued from above*

It would be a lot easier if more than one bag tab could be opened up so even if the split item when back into your retainer back you could see where it filled up the vacant space. Also i think some sort of way to separate the process of retainer items holding and selling could be put into 2 different summoning bells or just being able to tell the retainer to sell the item from the same tab as you giving or taking items from your retainer or something along those lines.

I wanted to make a whole thread about this but apparently i am not high enough level to, maybe because i spend so much time interacting with the banking system instead of playing the game.

How does other people feel about this, i would like to see the thread about it.