[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

[MeowyWowie]

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

I know I said let's just agree to disagree but I just can't help it. I've been trying to comprehend this train of thought since you've posted this but I must say, I strongly disagree. I've read it over and over, but every time I do, it just makes less and less sense.

I do not believe that people will play their jobs the same way they are now once this is implemented. The only thing I see this tool doing is making people avoid hitting 100% enmity, which generally equates to people putting less effort into a fight. I'm speaking for everyone but the tank of course, and I'll elaborate on that a little later. This brings me to my next point.

I also don't believe that implementing this will encourage people to try things they might not have done before. If you're not already trying to play your job to the fullest without this system then you're just gimping yourself. And to think that a tool like this is needed to make people play their jobs as efficiently as possible is just sad. Is it me or is today's gamer generation really that unconfident in their decision making abilities that they need tools to tell them what to do?

Taking out the guesswork is the exact reason we don't want this. The human body has an organ for these kinds of things, it's called the brain. Any element of a battle system that requires me to think before acting is a good one. Why on earth they would even consider adding this meter is beyond me.

This.

I think it's funny that people are acting like holding hate is some secret art that needs to be mastered. In XI all Paladin did was voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure, WS here and there, more voking. Nin tanking is a totally different story, so I won't even get into that.

The reason I bring up Paladin is because Gladiator and Pug are the only real tanks in this game (at the moment, and unless you equip their voking abilities to other classes), and they pretty much follow that same strategy. With that said, it takes little to no SKILL to tank, you just need to know how to spam voke, and hope that your mages aren't idiots that spam high level spells. The meter won't change the way tanks play their classes, it will just give them more options other than "uhhh, I guess I'll just throw another voke, 'cause I don't know whether or not I'll maintain hate".

Again, this is all based on the current system. For all we know the new system will take advantage of the meter with skills and battle regimens, or something like that.

In summary, people are going to bitch about every little change that happens regardless of what I say, but please don't knock it before we've even had time to try it. Especially since we don't even know how it will be applied to the new battle system.

I don't think I remember anyone saying that hate management was some type of secret art that has to be mastered. Does it require you to think? Absolutely. Is it beyond an average person's ability to comprehend? I certainly hope not. I played many jobs in FFXI as an example. Among those were both PLD and NIN. And I must say, NIN was much more fun because it required a little more strategy (though not much) than the latter. I don't think this has anything to do with the hate meter though, and this is why:

What I got from the battle reform post is that the percentage you see is the percentage of hate you have compared to the person with aggro. So logically this would mean that the person with aggro will be at 100% hate. What does that mean for tanks? The hate meter is absolutely useless to them. They will always be at 100% hate. This will not change how people tank, at all. It won't give them other options as you have suggested. Provoke and Taunt will still be spammed the same way it is now.

The only thing this meter will do is make players (not tanks) not try as hard because no one will want to cross the 100% hate threshold. This doesn't add any form of strategy at all. It just makes battle easier, something I thought was one of the biggest complaints about this game.

The only thing I agree with in your post, Tsuga, is the fact that we don't know how this meter will affect the new battle system. Even after considering that, I still don't see any purpose for it other than holding people's hands. If anyone can present any PROs for the hate meter that doesn't include making the game easier I'm all ears.

[Akuun]

HP bars, well this makes the game really easy, i mean come on, i can adjust my strategy based on the creatures remaining hp. Healers have it too easy because they know we can take a few more hits before they have to cure.

MP bars, you should simply keep count of your spells

Gear, this is a no brainer, way to much info, why should we know it makes our evasion this exact amount better, or that it will improve our gathering skills


I'm being sarcastic of course, but the point i'm trying to make is that this is simply a little more information, and doesn't make lazy players into better players.
There can only be so many visual cues as to monster hate, this is a simple way to improve this limitation.
Also the amount of enmity fluxuates constantly durring a battle, this allows us to better guage it and not have to simply go oh, i should hold back for a second, as you may find battles where this idea of thought simply won't work.
For example if a squishy damage dealer pulls hate and gets one shotted by a tp move that could have completely been avoided.
Or the pug that is used to holding back because gladiators regularly have trouble hold hate off them. (this happens to me regularly with regular attacks with out of sight and gladiators with intimidation and the best gear in the game)

Now it's true they are reworking the enmity system and it may make management easier and less unpredictable but for now this sounds like a solid feature, and one to be used strategically.

[Cogs]

I think the overall general complaint here is based on an assumption that adding a Hate Meter will essentially make this game just a little bit easier. At this present time thats my complaint with this idea as well.

Would be great if we could some kind of answer from the Devs about the reasoning behind wanting to add this? If they have plans to implement strategy based around this then i would be all for exploring / discussing further how that works...

If the devs intentions are just to add the hate meter, just because- then I think it's safe to assume that it will only make this game easier. Which is exactly what they said they weren't trying to do. We def need some sort of clarification on this part from the devs.

Hate meter just for Hate meter sake I believe is bad. We've been getting along fine with out it, why add it now Devs? I've been saying this for a long time that it feels like you guys are putting training wheels on this game. The natural progression I thought was to take them off after you learn. I feel like we are digressing with what you need to know about this game, because they are making everything visible to us.

I think a more clever way to add a metric of Hate is in the form of ability with a cooldown.

That way it's helpful for an instant during a battle. Doesn't completely hold our hands, while still giving us the option to have hate displayed if we want.

[Archon_Diabolos]

If there is a hate meter, make it generic, like a color outline that changes around the players name. Make it just enough to warn of impending danger, but not enough to know when you will get smacked in the face.

[Tsuga]

If anyone can present any PROs for the hate meter that doesn't include making the game easier I'm all ears.

PROS:

-Potential for tank to do something OTHER THAN "voke, cure cure cure, voke, cure cure cure, WS, voke, cure cure cure".

-Potential for Weapon Skills that take advantage of hate percentage - for example: "Weapon skill does ___ base damage, or +20% dmg if hate is above 80%". This would be great for tanks, because it would encourage good hate management, and the opportunity to do something aside from being a voke bot.

-Potential Battle Regimen Integration - for example: Regimen 1: "The last melee on ___ regimen gets a 30% hate boost." Regimen 2: "Regimen lowers mob magic defense, and if last melee in the regimen's hate is above 90% Party gets refresh buff". This would encourage COMBOING of regimens, and COMBOING of weapon skills.

-Mages/Melee KNOW (heaven forbid we know what's happening in the game we're playing) when the mage is gonna get hate, and can plan accordingly, rather than just being surprised when the mob turns around and noms the mage's head off.

-Last PRO, it won't change the way anybody tanks, it will only open up more opportunities for the party to have some variety in its strategy - as highlighted by pro 1, tanks won't be just VOKING non-stop, mages won't just be NUKING non-stop, and people will be able to plan their next move according to the flow of hate.

Note, these are just some simple ideas that I thought of off the top of my head, WITHOUT knowing what this future battle system will bring us. I'm sure the dev team has way better ideas than I do on this, so I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt.

CONS (according to everyone else) -

- Hate meter will make tanking too easy (as if it wasn't all ready easy... voke, cure cure cure, voke, cure cure cure).

IMO, it sounds like the CONS people think that tanking is difficult, or challenging as it is, and that watching a mob turn around and bitch slap the mages takes some sort of skill. Sorry, as hate management is right now, it's either you're holding the hate, and your mages/DDs aren't getting slapped, or they are getting slapped. There's no strategy to watching a mob slap the rest of your party.

Now, IF the mobs gave some sort of visual cue, such as turning around and looking at the target it's about to aggro before it does it, THAT would require some attention for the tank to notice, and know to voke. As it is right now, there's pretty much NOTHING that makes tanking challenging. I may ALMOST be in the same boat as you guys if it weren't for this fact.

[Akuun]

I think the overall general complaint here is based on an assumption that adding a Hate Meter will essentially make this game just a little bit easier. At this present time thats my complaint with this idea as well.

Right now the game is super easy, there is little to no strategy even when it comes to NMs, it is little more than a zerg and the NMs have become so easy, it's little more than 5-10mins for our ls, though keep in mind we were doing 5-6 man parties on them before they made them easier with party size changes.

The devs have stated that they want the game to present more of a challenge and not by simply making the enemies stronger. So I don't think you'll have to worry about the hate meter being added simply for the sake of adding it.
I have a strong feeling that hate management is going to be a key part of future party content.

[MeowyWowie]

Tsuga, I think you're completely missing the point we're trying to get across. This hate meter has NOTHING to do with tanking, period. It directly affects everyone but the tank. The only way it affects tanking is that everyone else will now know exactly where the line is between pulling hate or not pulling hate. This means that the tank now knows that he will never lose hate. However, I guarantee you that even after this is implemented tanks will still spam hate generating abilities. Why? Because they still raise their enmity with those abilities, which in turn lowers everyone else's enmity, which lets them do what they're supposed to do, without pulling hate. It's what tanks do, no one is saying this will make playing a tank easier/different.

The reason they're implementing this is so everyone else in the party knows where they stand in terms of enmity, and to adjust their actions accordingly so that they don't take hate.

People have been playing without a hate meter for years with no complaints. It doesn't take a genius to know how to control hate. But it's still much more fun to judge your enmity yourself rather than having something tell you. Again, I'm not talking about tanks. I'm referring to everyone else in the party.

With that out of the way...

You make 2 good PROs, although they are still purely speculation, Weapon Skills and BRs. If what you suggest is really something they plan to do then yes, I can see how having a hate meter will add strategy to a battle. Because then there's a real tactical reason for us to see what our enmity is at. If this is what the battle team has planned for us then I would support a hate meter. I think incorporating enmity levels into Weapons Skill/BR parameters is a great a idea. Although I think it will be a long time before we see anything like this. We're going to have to wait for more info from the devs to discuss this a little more though, I think.

The rest of your PROs all seem to revolve around tanking and avoiding pulling aggro. These are things that any competent party should be able to control just fine without a meter.

If they want to make enmity play a role in which Weapons Skills and BRs we use then by all means, give us the meter. But if it's only to help us manage hate, there's no need for it.

[WinterNightz]

I'm going to try and say this as absolutely concisely as possible:

The ability to intuit one's enmity level without a hate meter (as a mage/damage dealer) is a skill that is based on one's experience as a player. It is one of the few things in a MMORPG where the person behind the keyboard matters, and not just the character in-game.

The lack of information about the monster's enmity list (except for knowing who is at the very top) is one of the biggest things that 1. makes battle exciting, and 2. makes a difference when the players are actually skilled at their jobs.

As a tank (this depends on whether they choose to implement volatile and cumulative enmity like in ffxi), it is your skill as a player that let's you intuit that you've been beaten up so much that you need to save up a big VE spike ability for when the monster turns its eyes towards the healer. So yes, to all the people saying that tanks are just going to "voke cure cure cure cure voke cure cure cure cure" ad infinitum, there IS more to tanking than that.

As a damage dealer, a skilled player will be able to "ride the hate line", dealing as much damage as humanly possible without taking hate. With the enmity meter, this is no longer a skill that requires any thought. This is simply "press buttons until meter reaches point A". We should not be endorsing changes that bring the game closer to ProgressQuest.

[Tsuga]

Tsuga, I think you're completely missing the point we're trying to get across. This hate meter has NOTHING to do with tanking, period. It directly affects everyone but the tank. The only way it affects tanking is that everyone else will now know exactly where the line is between pulling hate or not pulling hate. This means that the tank now knows that he will never lose hate. However, I guarantee you that even after this is implemented tanks will still spam hate generating abilities. Why? Because they still raise their enmity with those abilities, which in turn lowers everyone else's enmity, which lets them do what they're supposed to do, without pulling hate. It's what tanks do, no one is saying this will make playing a tank easier/different.

The reason they're implementing this is so everyone else in the party knows where they stand in terms of enmity, and to adjust their actions accordingly so that they don't take hate.

People have been playing without a hate meter for years with no complaints. It doesn't take a genius to know how to control hate. But it's still much more fun to judge your enmity yourself rather than having something tell you. Again, I'm not talking about tanks. I'm referring to everyone else in the party.

With that out of the way...

You make 2 good PROs, although they are still purely speculation, Weapon Skills and BRs. If what you suggest is really something they plan to do then yes, I can see how having a hate meter will add strategy to a battle. Because then there's a real tactical reason for us to see what our enmity is at. If this is what the battle team has planned for us then I would support a hate meter. I think incorporating enmity levels into Weapons Skill/BR parameters is a great a idea. Although I think it will be a long time before we see anything like this. We're going to have to wait for more info from the devs to discuss this a little more though, I think.

The rest of your PROs all seem to revolve around tanking and avoiding pulling aggro. These are things that any competent party should be able to control just fine without a meter.

If they want to make enmity play a role in which Weapons Skills and BRs we use then by all means, give us the meter. But if it's only to help us manage hate, there's no need for it.

They're introducing a new battle system. While my points were merely ideas and speculation based on no fact, we DO know that this system is changing. I'd rather see what the hate meter offers for this new system, that sit here and bitch about something that we know practically nothing about. This game will never evolve if everyone chews out the devs when a new, potentially game evolving feature gets announced. If anything we should be throwing ideas out there for the devs to make good use of the hate meter, rather than just saying "keep it the same, I like not knowing when I'm gonna get my face chewed off by a peiste".

I understand what YOU are saying, but the OP and a lot of the other people in this thread seem to think that tanking requires some ounce of skill that would be negated by a hate meter. It doesn't, and it won't be. Mages are still going to cure the tank when they need to, they will just know whether or not they will be getting aggro after doing so. If mages didn't do this, they would be ousted from the party, and there would really be no reason for partying to begin with. The hate meter won't turn everyone in to a bunch of cowards that fear aggro, if anything it will prepare the party even more for preventing aggro from leaving the tank. Saying this is a problem is moot, because like you said, the tanks will likely STILL "voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure" the way they do now. The hate meter will simply be a tool to reference when they should time their vokes between dealing damage/tossing cures.

[DarkOrca]

I'm going to try and say this as absolutely concisely as possible:

The ability to intuit one's enmity level without a hate meter (as a mage/damage dealer) is a skill that is based on one's experience as a player. It is one of the few things in a MMORPG where the person behind the keyboard matters, and not just the character in-game.

The lack of information about the monster's enmity list (except for knowing who is at the very top) is one of the biggest things that 1. makes battle exciting, and 2. makes a difference when the players are actually skilled at their jobs.

As a tank (this depends on whether they choose to implement volatile and cumulative enmity like in ffxi), it is your skill as a player that let's you intuit that you've been beaten up so much that you need to save up a big VE spike ability for when the monster turns its eyes towards the healer. So yes, to all the people saying that tanks are just going to "voke cure cure cure cure voke cure cure cure cure" ad infinitum, there IS more to tanking than that.

As a damage dealer, a skilled player will be able to "ride the hate line", dealing as much damage as humanly possible without taking hate. With the enmity meter, this is no longer a skill that requires any thought. This is simply "press buttons until meter reaches point A". We should not be endorsing changes that bring the game closer to ProgressQuest.

Very well said.

Trying not to be personal here - for those who think tanking is all about voke cure cure cure voke cure cure cure, I'd say that person is at best an average tank, at least in the context of FFXI. Being a tank, your ability to hold hate directly control the pace of the battle (ie: total damage that can be done to the mob). Since enmity deteriorates over time other than cures and damage you did or taken, being able to time your job abilities/spells around the team without wasting timers show that you've put some thoughts into playing a tank....and this is what separates good tanks from the average ones. Oh and btw, thought it's situational, but there also times where you want to loosen hate in FFXI by turning around so that the THF can do Sneak/Trick attack onto you instead of a DD melee.

(Similar can be said to good healers they don't just spam cure all day long till the mob turns around but that's another story)