[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

[Archon_Diabolos]

If there is a hate meter, make it generic, like a color outline that changes around the players name. Make it just enough to warn of impending danger, but not enough to know when you will get smacked in the face.

[Akuun]

I think the overall general complaint here is based on an assumption that adding a Hate Meter will essentially make this game just a little bit easier. At this present time thats my complaint with this idea as well.

Right now the game is super easy, there is little to no strategy even when it comes to NMs, it is little more than a zerg and the NMs have become so easy, it's little more than 5-10mins for our ls, though keep in mind we were doing 5-6 man parties on them before they made them easier with party size changes.

The devs have stated that they want the game to present more of a challenge and not by simply making the enemies stronger. So I don't think you'll have to worry about the hate meter being added simply for the sake of adding it.
I have a strong feeling that hate management is going to be a key part of future party content.

[MeowyWowie]

Tsuga, I think you're completely missing the point we're trying to get across. This hate meter has NOTHING to do with tanking, period. It directly affects everyone but the tank. The only way it affects tanking is that everyone else will now know exactly where the line is between pulling hate or not pulling hate. This means that the tank now knows that he will never lose hate. However, I guarantee you that even after this is implemented tanks will still spam hate generating abilities. Why? Because they still raise their enmity with those abilities, which in turn lowers everyone else's enmity, which lets them do what they're supposed to do, without pulling hate. It's what tanks do, no one is saying this will make playing a tank easier/different.

The reason they're implementing this is so everyone else in the party knows where they stand in terms of enmity, and to adjust their actions accordingly so that they don't take hate.

People have been playing without a hate meter for years with no complaints. It doesn't take a genius to know how to control hate. But it's still much more fun to judge your enmity yourself rather than having something tell you. Again, I'm not talking about tanks. I'm referring to everyone else in the party.

With that out of the way...

You make 2 good PROs, although they are still purely speculation, Weapon Skills and BRs. If what you suggest is really something they plan to do then yes, I can see how having a hate meter will add strategy to a battle. Because then there's a real tactical reason for us to see what our enmity is at. If this is what the battle team has planned for us then I would support a hate meter. I think incorporating enmity levels into Weapons Skill/BR parameters is a great a idea. Although I think it will be a long time before we see anything like this. We're going to have to wait for more info from the devs to discuss this a little more though, I think.

The rest of your PROs all seem to revolve around tanking and avoiding pulling aggro. These are things that any competent party should be able to control just fine without a meter.

If they want to make enmity play a role in which Weapons Skills and BRs we use then by all means, give us the meter. But if it's only to help us manage hate, there's no need for it.

[WinterNightz]

I'm going to try and say this as absolutely concisely as possible:

The ability to intuit one's enmity level without a hate meter (as a mage/damage dealer) is a skill that is based on one's experience as a player. It is one of the few things in a MMORPG where the person behind the keyboard matters, and not just the character in-game.

The lack of information about the monster's enmity list (except for knowing who is at the very top) is one of the biggest things that 1. makes battle exciting, and 2. makes a difference when the players are actually skilled at their jobs.

As a tank (this depends on whether they choose to implement volatile and cumulative enmity like in ffxi), it is your skill as a player that let's you intuit that you've been beaten up so much that you need to save up a big VE spike ability for when the monster turns its eyes towards the healer. So yes, to all the people saying that tanks are just going to "voke cure cure cure cure voke cure cure cure cure" ad infinitum, there IS more to tanking than that.

As a damage dealer, a skilled player will be able to "ride the hate line", dealing as much damage as humanly possible without taking hate. With the enmity meter, this is no longer a skill that requires any thought. This is simply "press buttons until meter reaches point A". We should not be endorsing changes that bring the game closer to ProgressQuest.

[DarkOrca]

I'm going to try and say this as absolutely concisely as possible:

The ability to intuit one's enmity level without a hate meter (as a mage/damage dealer) is a skill that is based on one's experience as a player. It is one of the few things in a MMORPG where the person behind the keyboard matters, and not just the character in-game.

The lack of information about the monster's enmity list (except for knowing who is at the very top) is one of the biggest things that 1. makes battle exciting, and 2. makes a difference when the players are actually skilled at their jobs.

As a tank (this depends on whether they choose to implement volatile and cumulative enmity like in ffxi), it is your skill as a player that let's you intuit that you've been beaten up so much that you need to save up a big VE spike ability for when the monster turns its eyes towards the healer. So yes, to all the people saying that tanks are just going to "voke cure cure cure cure voke cure cure cure cure" ad infinitum, there IS more to tanking than that.

As a damage dealer, a skilled player will be able to "ride the hate line", dealing as much damage as humanly possible without taking hate. With the enmity meter, this is no longer a skill that requires any thought. This is simply "press buttons until meter reaches point A". We should not be endorsing changes that bring the game closer to ProgressQuest.

Very well said.

Trying not to be personal here - for those who think tanking is all about voke cure cure cure voke cure cure cure, I'd say that person is at best an average tank, at least in the context of FFXI. Being a tank, your ability to hold hate directly control the pace of the battle (ie: total damage that can be done to the mob). Since enmity deteriorates over time other than cures and damage you did or taken, being able to time your job abilities/spells around the team without wasting timers show that you've put some thoughts into playing a tank....and this is what separates good tanks from the average ones. Oh and btw, thought it's situational, but there also times where you want to loosen hate in FFXI by turning around so that the THF can do Sneak/Trick attack onto you instead of a DD melee.

(Similar can be said to good healers they don't just spam cure all day long till the mob turns around but that's another story)

[Tsuga]

Tsuga, I think you're completely missing the point we're trying to get across. This hate meter has NOTHING to do with tanking, period. It directly affects everyone but the tank. The only way it affects tanking is that everyone else will now know exactly where the line is between pulling hate or not pulling hate. This means that the tank now knows that he will never lose hate. However, I guarantee you that even after this is implemented tanks will still spam hate generating abilities. Why? Because they still raise their enmity with those abilities, which in turn lowers everyone else's enmity, which lets them do what they're supposed to do, without pulling hate. It's what tanks do, no one is saying this will make playing a tank easier/different.

The reason they're implementing this is so everyone else in the party knows where they stand in terms of enmity, and to adjust their actions accordingly so that they don't take hate.

People have been playing without a hate meter for years with no complaints. It doesn't take a genius to know how to control hate. But it's still much more fun to judge your enmity yourself rather than having something tell you. Again, I'm not talking about tanks. I'm referring to everyone else in the party.

With that out of the way...

You make 2 good PROs, although they are still purely speculation, Weapon Skills and BRs. If what you suggest is really something they plan to do then yes, I can see how having a hate meter will add strategy to a battle. Because then there's a real tactical reason for us to see what our enmity is at. If this is what the battle team has planned for us then I would support a hate meter. I think incorporating enmity levels into Weapons Skill/BR parameters is a great a idea. Although I think it will be a long time before we see anything like this. We're going to have to wait for more info from the devs to discuss this a little more though, I think.

The rest of your PROs all seem to revolve around tanking and avoiding pulling aggro. These are things that any competent party should be able to control just fine without a meter.

If they want to make enmity play a role in which Weapons Skills and BRs we use then by all means, give us the meter. But if it's only to help us manage hate, there's no need for it.

They're introducing a new battle system. While my points were merely ideas and speculation based on no fact, we DO know that this system is changing. I'd rather see what the hate meter offers for this new system, that sit here and bitch about something that we know practically nothing about. This game will never evolve if everyone chews out the devs when a new, potentially game evolving feature gets announced. If anything we should be throwing ideas out there for the devs to make good use of the hate meter, rather than just saying "keep it the same, I like not knowing when I'm gonna get my face chewed off by a peiste".

I understand what YOU are saying, but the OP and a lot of the other people in this thread seem to think that tanking requires some ounce of skill that would be negated by a hate meter. It doesn't, and it won't be. Mages are still going to cure the tank when they need to, they will just know whether or not they will be getting aggro after doing so. If mages didn't do this, they would be ousted from the party, and there would really be no reason for partying to begin with. The hate meter won't turn everyone in to a bunch of cowards that fear aggro, if anything it will prepare the party even more for preventing aggro from leaving the tank. Saying this is a problem is moot, because like you said, the tanks will likely STILL "voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure" the way they do now. The hate meter will simply be a tool to reference when they should time their vokes between dealing damage/tossing cures.

[Viridiana]

Wait, isn't the entirety of hate management at the moment "Don't buff unless the tank has been buffing"? I mean, I know when I tank, that's pretty much literally all I do: Punch (to start the fight), 'voke, taunt, buff, buff, buff, buff, 'voke, buff, buff, buff, taunt, 'voke. . . crap, I'm out of buttons, guess I should punch, 'voke. . .

Pretty much the only way to pull hate in this game is to buff and use things that specifically give you enmity. Granted, I can't speak much for the mage classes, because I don't play them much; but the only time I've ever seen them pull aggro (assuming the tank is trying at all) is with AoE buffs. Even then, after the battle's been going for a few, that doesn't really work, either.

What I'm getting at here is that I don't see this changing how anyone will play. We've all agreed that nothing changes for the tank, but I don't see anything changing for the dps/healers, either. Once the tank firmly establishes hate (which, remember hasn't changed at all), everyone else will open up just as much as they used to, if not moreso.

[Tokenkauph]

Since we have limited info on the new battle system I cannot say for sure what adding a hate meter into the game will do. i am sure SE could come up with a way to make it skillful and fun. The following comments are based on why I would not want a hate meter in FFXIV "As it is currently" or in FFXI since I have played both games.


I think a hate meter just makes the game more predictable which sounds boring to me. As a healer I want to make quick calculations in my head in order to decide if I should cast Cure 3 in the heat of battle over Cure 2. Because Cure 3 might heal my tank up enough to take an extra hit or two so I can have time to cast cure 2 save a DD who is off tanking a add. But Cure 3 might also pull the hate over to me which means the battle may turn a different way. By adding the hate meter you are taking this dynamic away and to me it is these things that make combat fun. Hitting the same 5 keys over and over again trying to keep a meter from filling to full is not fun to me.

[Cogs]

Depending on how and if the new battle changes actually find a way to thoughtfully implement a skill-full way utilizing a tool such as a hate meter. That's still all it is, "a metric of hate". We need to ask ourselves is it something that is really Needed?
Rather SE needs to tell us Why it is needed first before implementing it.

At the present state of the game I don't believe it's needed at all. Do I believe that SE will totally revolutionize the new battle system that a hate meter will need to be implemented. No I don't. The Dev's past few updates there have been relevant complaints from the FFXIV fan base about the game being made too easy with having implemented such things such as the "icon" next to monsters that aggro.

At this point I fear a hate meter will become just another toggelable displayed icon. So that if you are a tank it will then become even easier watch Television shows while playing this game, only glancing back at your screen every few seconds to check that your Hate % is high or is the highest, and then with fingers placed on your "voke" button, go back to watching your TV show of choice. Just another enhancement to this game that will make it easier to play on autopilot.

I would like a post from SE as to why they feel they need to implement a hate meter. It def needs to be explained to us why it makes sense to do so, because I think a lot of the debate we are having is divided between people that like the idea of knowing where they stand so that they can perform more efficiently, on the other side is the people that like the idea of not knowing because of the excitement from having to keep on your toes. To me personally Id rather not know. I feel like all the little subtle / yet intricate mysteries of this game that do add excitement like "Does this monsters aggro?", or "do I have enough or too much hate on Uraeus?" Seem to be slowly disappearing.

[Sanlord]

Booom... We need it and point. it's a casual/hardcore game.