[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

[MeowyWowie]

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

I know I said let's just agree to disagree but I just can't help it. I've been trying to comprehend this train of thought since you've posted this but I must say, I strongly disagree. I've read it over and over, but every time I do, it just makes less and less sense.

I do not believe that people will play their jobs the same way they are now once this is implemented. The only thing I see this tool doing is making people avoid hitting 100% enmity, which generally equates to people putting less effort into a fight. I'm speaking for everyone but the tank of course, and I'll elaborate on that a little later. This brings me to my next point.

I also don't believe that implementing this will encourage people to try things they might not have done before. If you're not already trying to play your job to the fullest without this system then you're just gimping yourself. And to think that a tool like this is needed to make people play their jobs as efficiently as possible is just sad. Is it me or is today's gamer generation really that unconfident in their decision making abilities that they need tools to tell them what to do?

Taking out the guesswork is the exact reason we don't want this. The human body has an organ for these kinds of things, it's called the brain. Any element of a battle system that requires me to think before acting is a good one. Why on earth they would even consider adding this meter is beyond me.

This.

I think it's funny that people are acting like holding hate is some secret art that needs to be mastered. In XI all Paladin did was voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure, WS here and there, more voking. Nin tanking is a totally different story, so I won't even get into that.

The reason I bring up Paladin is because Gladiator and Pug are the only real tanks in this game (at the moment, and unless you equip their voking abilities to other classes), and they pretty much follow that same strategy. With that said, it takes little to no SKILL to tank, you just need to know how to spam voke, and hope that your mages aren't idiots that spam high level spells. The meter won't change the way tanks play their classes, it will just give them more options other than "uhhh, I guess I'll just throw another voke, 'cause I don't know whether or not I'll maintain hate".

Again, this is all based on the current system. For all we know the new system will take advantage of the meter with skills and battle regimens, or something like that.

In summary, people are going to bitch about every little change that happens regardless of what I say, but please don't knock it before we've even had time to try it. Especially since we don't even know how it will be applied to the new battle system.

I don't think I remember anyone saying that hate management was some type of secret art that has to be mastered. Does it require you to think? Absolutely. Is it beyond an average person's ability to comprehend? I certainly hope not. I played many jobs in FFXI as an example. Among those were both PLD and NIN. And I must say, NIN was much more fun because it required a little more strategy (though not much) than the latter. I don't think this has anything to do with the hate meter though, and this is why:

What I got from the battle reform post is that the percentage you see is the percentage of hate you have compared to the person with aggro. So logically this would mean that the person with aggro will be at 100% hate. What does that mean for tanks? The hate meter is absolutely useless to them. They will always be at 100% hate. This will not change how people tank, at all. It won't give them other options as you have suggested. Provoke and Taunt will still be spammed the same way it is now.

The only thing this meter will do is make players (not tanks) not try as hard because no one will want to cross the 100% hate threshold. This doesn't add any form of strategy at all. It just makes battle easier, something I thought was one of the biggest complaints about this game.

The only thing I agree with in your post, Tsuga, is the fact that we don't know how this meter will affect the new battle system. Even after considering that, I still don't see any purpose for it other than holding people's hands. If anyone can present any PROs for the hate meter that doesn't include making the game easier I'm all ears.

[Tsuga]

If anyone can present any PROs for the hate meter that doesn't include making the game easier I'm all ears.

PROS:

-Potential for tank to do something OTHER THAN "voke, cure cure cure, voke, cure cure cure, WS, voke, cure cure cure".

-Potential for Weapon Skills that take advantage of hate percentage - for example: "Weapon skill does ___ base damage, or +20% dmg if hate is above 80%". This would be great for tanks, because it would encourage good hate management, and the opportunity to do something aside from being a voke bot.

-Potential Battle Regimen Integration - for example: Regimen 1: "The last melee on ___ regimen gets a 30% hate boost." Regimen 2: "Regimen lowers mob magic defense, and if last melee in the regimen's hate is above 90% Party gets refresh buff". This would encourage COMBOING of regimens, and COMBOING of weapon skills.

-Mages/Melee KNOW (heaven forbid we know what's happening in the game we're playing) when the mage is gonna get hate, and can plan accordingly, rather than just being surprised when the mob turns around and noms the mage's head off.

-Last PRO, it won't change the way anybody tanks, it will only open up more opportunities for the party to have some variety in its strategy - as highlighted by pro 1, tanks won't be just VOKING non-stop, mages won't just be NUKING non-stop, and people will be able to plan their next move according to the flow of hate.

Note, these are just some simple ideas that I thought of off the top of my head, WITHOUT knowing what this future battle system will bring us. I'm sure the dev team has way better ideas than I do on this, so I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt.

CONS (according to everyone else) -

- Hate meter will make tanking too easy (as if it wasn't all ready easy... voke, cure cure cure, voke, cure cure cure).

IMO, it sounds like the CONS people think that tanking is difficult, or challenging as it is, and that watching a mob turn around and bitch slap the mages takes some sort of skill. Sorry, as hate management is right now, it's either you're holding the hate, and your mages/DDs aren't getting slapped, or they are getting slapped. There's no strategy to watching a mob slap the rest of your party.

Now, IF the mobs gave some sort of visual cue, such as turning around and looking at the target it's about to aggro before it does it, THAT would require some attention for the tank to notice, and know to voke. As it is right now, there's pretty much NOTHING that makes tanking challenging. I may ALMOST be in the same boat as you guys if it weren't for this fact.

[Arcell]

I also don't believe that implementing this will encourage people to try things they might not have done before. If you're not already trying to play your job to the fullest without this system then you're just gimping yourself. And to think that a tool like this is needed to make people play their jobs as efficiently as possible is just sad. Is it me or is today's gamer generation really that unconfident in their decision making abilities that they need tools to tell them what to do?

Well maybe it's because hate is kind of screwy right now but I hold back on it as it is now. I don't know where my hate is and I've pulled off a tank by just attacking with Out of Sight on. I've also gone through entire fights without the enemy so much as looking at me with Intimidation on. Anything that might pull additional unnecessary hate is something I stay away from and that includes most buffs. The system seems to just go all over the place sometimes, it often makes no sense. When the enmity algorithms are fixed maybe it will be a different story.

I'm not sure where the "generation of gamer" comment comes in. I've been playing for 15+ years now, first system was a Genesis. I've been quite vocal on wanting challenge however showing simple data doesn't really make things easier for me. If a fight is challenging then it will be so whether or not I know the state of my enmity. You know Monster Hunter doesn't display health bars on any of it's monsters, maybe we should do that because it makes the fight more fun not knowing how far along you are in a timed fight. You really have to get a feel for how long it takes you to kill a monster, or just fail miserably without any indication. Don't get me wrong, love MH though.

I'm neither in favor or against the system, I can just see situations where it would be nice. Seems like they're adding it either way so I'm just looking on the bright side.