Not being able to buy single items from a stack on the marketward.

[Wulfies]

Then they run out of space until they sell more stuff... Where is the huge game ending problem you are pretending exists? You know you can use /shout, /fc, /L(#), /yell, and other chat channels to also trade goods?

Currently:
/shout = RMT (filtered)
/yell = RMT (Filtered)
/Linkshell = I dunno, maybe I was/am in a really cool LS back in 1.0/2.0, cause there are a lot of people that ask if they want mats for free (well maybe I would barter my skills as a crafter to make them stuff or repair thier stuff) and I would do the same if I had any stuff I didn't want or need. Cause isn't that the point of the LS/FC to help others in your community?

Are there any other channels that I have missed?

Your assumption here is that you are only selling the high-end mats/gear or HQ mats/gear. Yes, you CAN just sell HQ mats, but for some that is just not monetarily efficient for the buy side. If your sell strategy works for you, congratulations. So what happens to the person in their 30s trying to sell their stuff (Raptor Hides and Iron Ores and the likes)?

What happens to them? It was your example of a hypothetical mid-30s leveled player with his pockets turned inside out and cannot grasp the simple concept of how to use the market and player economy to succeed. I grow wary of these endless 'But what about Bob, the bad trader! What becomes of him if we dont ruin the market for everyone else!?!?'.

I had no problem selling goods in my 30s, my FC members in their 30s dont either. As a 50 now, I do not bother with lvl 30 stuff, so they only compete with others around their level.. Or from the looks of it some people in this thread who are still selling vendor bought eggs for a 3gil profit each.

I am not talking about some poor desolate mid 30 level player, I am talking about the average Joe who happened to finish off all his DoW/DoM and wants something to do while they "Fix" issues with the DoM/DoW side of the game. You probably had no problem selling in your 30s due to the large player population at your level at the time.

During the first few month's of a game there will always be a new influx of people into the market. You assume that the player base will always have new entrants into the market at all times. This clearly is not the case, The player world will reach a limit (if it has not already) and will dwindle over time. But, if you still believe that there will always be new entrants to the market, I have some ocean front property in Arizona, that you might want to scoop up.

I dont quite agree that it worked well in 1.0, but even so the only reason it even KINDA worked was due to bazaar and market wards. Those systems would take pressure off the market and allow for enough wiggle room to implement systems like BUY FROM STACK. Without them though, its a terrible idea and would ruin the market/economy.

OK....maybe I am a little slow this afternoon becasue my brain can't seem to comprehend how the market ward system was/is different than what we have now. Can you elaborate on this point?

Also, I made over 100 million gil with my "Terrible" "buy from stack" idea which they had in 1.0. I guess I was one of the luck ones .

I think the reason most people are so worked up on the current stack selling system is that they don't know how to make gils out of it by taking risk and selling break bulk. You can argue that it is improves the liquidity of the market thus increase the efficiency of the economy, and I agree with that. Make no mistake thinking that allowing players to buy individual pieces from a stack will change your trading outcome...good traders will always out trade you...despite the many proposed solutions to the market posted here and elsewhere.

Bad traders that blames everything else but themselves for their own failure will always find something else to complain about when they fail in the market.

I believe that most of us can make gil in the market, if we couldn't then meh, we would sell to the NPC. The way SE has set this up is very cumbersome. Here is my example (yes, the numbers are pushed out to sheer stupidly to show effect but the underlying concept still remains):

I have 99 Darksteel Ores. Now We all know that to create Darkstee Nuggets I need 3 Ores Darkstee Nugget Link.

Knowing that, I would sell in stacks of 3, 6, 9, etc, etc. So lets say I decide to make stacks of 9 @ 9k/stack (1k for each Darksteel Ore). Again, maybe I am just slow at putting stuff on the MW through my retainer, but that takes a bit of time to put up 11 of these sales. OK, so I have put my stuff on my retainer and head off to bed (I usually adjust/add stuff before heading to sleep). I come back the next night and find that people put stacks for 7k-8.5k for 9 ores. To be competitive, I will have to reduce all 11 of my sales (again, it might be faster for you but that takes a bit of time doing that 11 times.) If I could put all my 99 @ 1k each, I could accomplish this in 1/11th the time and have 10 other spots to put other crap that I have accumulated.

Now, I know you will come back with the whole "Costco/Sam's/bulk discount" argument. Fine, keep the sell in stacks in place, it's a valid market strategy. I still want to be able to sell in stacks AND singles from a stack.

[AkikoPanda1]

I'll admit, this thread was a bit TLDR, so this might have been said already, but how difficult would it be to program a buy-from-stack premium?

Say you put a stack of 10 ore up for 3k gil for the whole stack, but buying a single ore was 400 gil? The seller could choose the premium and it would be either displayed next to the stack price or in a confirmation window before you purchase.

[MentalPoison]

I think the reason most people are so worked up on the current stack selling system is that they don't know how to make gils out of it by taking risk and selling break bulk. You can argue that it is improves the liquidity of the market thus increase the efficiency of the economy, and I agree with that. Make no mistake thinking that allowing players to buy individual pieces from a stack will change your trading outcome...good traders will always out trade you...despite the many proposed solutions to the market posted here and elsewhere.

Bad traders that blames everything else but themselves for their own failure will always find something else to complain about when they fail in the market.

*Climbs atop his chair hooting and applauding at the thread winning post*

Thank you so much, I swear this thread almost made me completely lose faith in common sense.

Currently:
/shout = RMT (filtered)
/yell = RMT (Filtered)
/Linkshell = I dunno, maybe I was/am in a really cool LS back in 1.0/2.0, cause there are a lot of people that ask if they want mats for free (well maybe I would barter my skills as a crafter to make them stuff or repair thier stuff) and I would do the same if I had any stuff I didn't want or need. Cause isn't that the point of the LS/FC to help others in your community?

On me server we just blacklist the spammers and continue to use SHOUT and YELL as a advertising tool "So and So's Kitchen is open, LvL 50 CUL!" ect ect. I decline your above statements as they are too dismissive, if YOU have them filtered, then its YOU that is not properly using these channels.

Also your approach to a FC crafter is off, IMO, as I help many out.. Yet I also get in trade, the items they wont much use, shards for example. Anyone youre hooking up, is MORE then happy to hook you back up.

You state that the point of FC/LS is to help everyone in your community. Yet in this thread you are yourself in trouble, by the argument. You're a struggling street crafter eating out of trashcans and sleeping under the market board. If youre so dire, I can imagine these players would be more then willing to help YOU out. Take their help, drop some moral code you cling to where you spend all your gil helping people and try to fix the "broken" market because you cant manage your money/time.

I am not talking about some poor desolate mid 30 level player, I am talking about the average Joe who happened to finish off all his DoW/DoM and wants something to do while they "Fix" issues with the DoM/DoW side of the game. You probably had no problem selling in your 30s due to the large player population at your level at the time.

So... 50s now? What exactly am I arguing here?

50s can go do Tome runs, which I doubt will ever spike as low as crafters wish they would.

So im so sorry but there is no 30, 40, 50 level players with their pockets inside out, kicking a dirt clump going "Oh gee oh me, if only I could buy a single item from a stack on the Market, my luck would turn around!".

During the first few month's of a game there will always be a new influx of people into the market. You assume that the player base will always have new entrants into the market at all times. This clearly is not the case, The player world will reach a limit (if it has not already) and will dwindle over time. But, if you still believe that there will always be new entrants to the market, I have some ocean front property in Arizona, that you might want to scoop up.

Well I hope you do better in Real Estate, cause id rather not have to argue another thread on how thats tanking because you couldnt figure it out.

Anyway I dont see what this quote has to do with anything, to be honest. Did you want me just to play Devil's Advocate on this statement, so we could move away from the topic at hand?

Fine.. New MMOs, without PvP, will actually get a spike in new players up until they close. So there will be a fresh round of 30s to be sold to (I assume you meant). Even if not, other players will start a new class and those players are rich enough to overpay on lower lvl items.

So its win win!

OK....maybe I am a little slow this afternoon becasue my brain can't seem to comprehend how the market ward system was/is different than what we have now. Can you elaborate on this point?

Also, I made over 100 million gil with my "Terrible" "buy from stack" idea which they had in 1.0. I guess I was one of the luck ones .

Market Wards were a location you would travel to, retainers would need to be placed in these locations by the players, and each area had a theme that you got a tax break on if you sold the right items in.

Bazaar was an option you had on your character, you could set yourself up to be a traveling retainer, people could browse and buy from you on the spot.

This is the only system that would even remotely work with buying a single item from a stack, OUTSIDE of the Market Board. On the MB, you should still NOT be allowed to buy a specific amount from a stack. As so many have explained until blue in the face, this would hurt the whole system.

I believe that most of us can make gil in the market, if we couldn't then meh, we would sell to the NPC. The way SE has set this up is very cumbersome. Here is my example (yes, the numbers are pushed out to sheer stupidly to show effect but the underlying concept still remains):

I have 99 Darksteel Ores. Now We all know that to create Darkstee Nuggets I need 3 Ores Darkstee Nugget Link.

Knowing that, I would sell in stacks of 3, 6, 9, etc, etc. So lets say I decide to make stacks of 9 @ 9k/stack (1k for each Darksteel Ore). Again, maybe I am just slow at putting stuff on the MW through my retainer, but that takes a bit of time to put up 11 of these sales. OK, so I have put my stuff on my retainer and head off to bed (I usually adjust/add stuff before heading to sleep). I come back the next night and find that people put stacks for 7k-8.5k for 9 ores. To be competitive, I will have to reduce all 11 of my sales (again, it might be faster for you but that takes a bit of time doing that 11 times.) If I could put all my 99 @ 1k each, I could accomplish this in 1/11th the time and have 10 other spots to put other crap that I have accumulated.

Because this would break the entire system. You still dont get it, nobody is getting it like at all. Give me a second I have to try really hard to find a way to say this for you to understand.

Ok.. You have 99 DST ore, you want 1k each or youll cry. You want to list 99, sold 1 by 1, at 1,000 gil each. This is a magical fix in your mind, there is nothing humanly wrong with it, its perfect.

WAIT.. I have 99 DST ore, I want to sell them 1 by 1, I think I will ask for 999 gil for them.

What just happened? How did your brilliant plan go wrong? I dont understand.. Even selling individual items from a stack, I still undercut you! UH OH! Guess what, now you cant even sell 3, 6, 9 at 1k per, everyone and anyone is buying ALL mine at 999. Im part of 'Mine Over Matter' FC, we are an end game mining progression FC.

We have 21,452 DarkSteel Ore in our Company Chest. Do you have more then us? I doubt it, guess what, until we leave this game.. We now sell Darksteel Ore and you will never do so again. Oops, as I typed this you listed at 998. So as punishment, we dropped the cost to 666.

Now, I know you will come back with the whole "Costco/Sam's/bulk discount" argument. Fine, keep the sell in stacks in place, it's a valid market strategy. I still want to be able to sell in stacks AND singles from a stack.

Read above and try your hardest to understand why you cant have both, without bazaar/mark wards.

Thank you very much for your time.

[Sinbios]

Because this would break the entire system. You still dont get it, nobody is getting it like at all. Give me a second I have to try really hard to find a way to say this for you to understand.

Ok.. You have 99 DST ore, you want 1k each or youll cry. You want to list 99, sold 1 by 1, at 1,000 gil each. This is a magical fix in your mind, there is nothing humanly wrong with it, its perfect.



WAIT.. I have 99 DST ore, I want to sell them 1 by 1, I think I will ask for 999 gil for them.

What just happened? How did your brilliant plan go wrong? I dont understand.. Even selling individual items from a stack, I still undercut you! UH OH! Guess what, now you cant even sell 3, 6, 9 at 1k per, everyone and anyone is buying ALL mine at 999. Im part of 'Mine Over Matter' FC, we are an end game mining progression FC.

We have 21,452 DarkSteel Ore in our Company Chest. Do you have more then us? I doubt it, guess what, until we leave this game.. We now sell Darksteel Ore and you will never do so again. Oops, as I typed this you listed at 998. So as punishment, we dropped the cost to 666.

So what? If you have 21452 of something and decide to sell it at 666, then that's overwhelming supply and that item is really worth 666. Then he either undercuts you to 665 or also sells it at 666 and you both have an equal chance of being bought from. And it only takes him one click, not 40. After 4 pages you still haven't explained why this is "bad" and "broken".

[Wazabi]

So what? If you have 21452 of something and decide to sell it at 666, then that's overwhelming supply and that item is really worth 666. Then he either undercuts you to 665 or also sells it at 666 and you both have an equal chance of being bought from. And it only takes him one click, not 40. After 4 pages you still haven't explained why this is "bad" and "broken".

Neither system is bad nor broken...it's just a market rule. Looking at it from a macro point of view, it all depends on how the dev wants the economy to be.

On one hand, what we have now allows seller more flexibility in the pricing of their goods. On the other hand, allowing to buy single item from stack enables the buyer to obtain the quantity of goods they need at the lowest possible price. Either one is fine with me.

So the question I want to ask is: What really bothers you? Was it too cumbersome? If so why not just proposed to make it less cumbersome rather than changing the trading mechanics?

Is it the trading mechanics? Both have their pros and cons, and requires different trading strategy. You may think you know how to trade in a market with different trading mechanics, are you really sure of that? What makes you think that if you can't figure out this trading mechanics that you'll be able to figure out others?

Addressing Sinbios's question, the price which clears the market is much more complicated than that. Ultimately, it depends on the gap between the aggregated supply and demand. Selling singles from stacks will cause the price to arrive at the 'real' market rate quicker, and probably less variation. Also, it will take away some of the trading strategies available now. So the good and bad depends on your perspective from the buyer or seller's point of view.

[Sinbios]

So the question I want to ask is: What really bothers you? Was it too cumbersome? If so why not just proposed to make it less cumbersome rather than changing the trading mechanics?

Yes, I find the system very cumbersome to use at this point. Maintaining 10 listings of one item at different stack sizes takes a long time, and it's not even guaranteed to sell. It would be much better to have guaranteed sales by having buy orders, this fulfills the need for instant gratification of sales for some which is the root cause of frequent undercutting, and is healthier for the economy in the long run as prices will converge much more easily to the true price dictated by supply and demand since the actual amount of both will be plain to see.

Addressing Sinbios's question

I had a question?

[Wulfies]

I had no problem selling goods in my 30s, my FC members in their 30s dont either. As a 50 now, I do not bother with lvl 30 stuff, so they only compete with others around their level.. Or from the looks of it some people in this thread who are still selling vendor bought eggs for a 3gil profit each.

First off, seems a bit odd that you are talking baout being 50 (hell even lvl 30) with crafts yet you do not have one. Is this your second char? If you don't, please wait till you have a class in the range and have experience before you start with your so called "debunking" of other people's ideas.

Your char as seen on on the SE website

On me server we just blacklist the spammers and continue to use SHOUT and YELL as a advertising tool "So and So's Kitchen is open, LvL 50 CUL!" ect ect. I decline your above statements as they are too dismissive, if YOU have them filtered, then its YOU that is not properly using these channels.

Also your approach to a FC crafter is off, IMO, as I help many out.. Yet I also get in trade, the items they wont much use, shards for example. Anyone youre hooking up, is MORE then happy to hook you back up.

Ok, first blist has a limit to how many people can be on there. Given that RMTs can create alot more chars and SE's inability to curb this my blist is kind-of full, hence they are filtered.

Also, with your suggestion of saying "So and So's Kitchen is open, LvL 50 CUL!" isn't that the idea behind the creation of hte market wards/market boards? So that people do not have to waste their time doing that to make money?

You state that the point of FC/LS is to help everyone in your community. Yet in this thread you are yourself in trouble, by the argument. You're a struggling street crafter eating out of trashcans and sleeping under the market board. If youre so dire, I can imagine these players would be more then willing to help YOU out. Take their help, drop some moral code you cling to where you spend all your gil helping people and try to fix the "broken" market because you cant manage your money/time.

I am sorry, now where did I ever say that I was "a struggling street crafter" as you put it? Can you please provide me the quotes and the post #s. To my knowledge I haven't.

I am not talking about some poor desolate mid 30 level player, I am talking about the average Joe who happened to finish off all his DoW/DoM and wants something to do while they "Fix" issues with the DoM/DoW side of the game. You probably had no problem selling in your 30s due to the large player population at your level at the time.

So... 50s now? What exactly am I arguing here?

50s can go do Tome runs, which I doubt will ever spike as low as crafters wish they would.

So im so sorry but there is no 30, 40, 50 level players with their pockets inside out, kicking a dirt clump going "Oh gee oh me, if only I could buy a single item from a stack on the Market, my luck would turn around!".

I am going to keep this simple. Now seeing you have not faced this problem yet, I will cut you a little slack, now when you get to 50 on a couple of DoW/DoM jobs the monotony of "FATE"/exp grinding/waiting on a duty finder queue will wear on you. You might want to do something completely different (ie pick up a hatchet or alembic). These are the people I am talking about.

Also, when did we diverge into tome farming?

During the first few month's of a game there will always be a new influx of people into the market. You assume that the player base will always have new entrants into the market at all times. This clearly is not the case, The player world will reach a limit (if it has not already) and will dwindle over time.

Anyway I dont see what this quote has to do with anything, to be honest. Did you want me just to play Devil's Advocate on this statement, so we could move away from the topic at hand?


Fine.. New MMOs, without PvP, will actually get a spike in new players up until they close. So there will be a fresh round of 30s to be sold to (I assume you meant). Even if not, other players will start a new class and those players are rich enough to overpay on lower lvl items.

So its win win!

I didn't want you to play devil's advocate, I just wanted to point out an assumption that you are using in your argument. When you say "rich enough to overpay on lower level items are you talking about the "low-level gear" or "low-level material?" We should only be talking about materials since this topic is about selling from stacks and material (and food and potions) are the only thing the OP is talking about.

OK....maybe I am a little slow this afternoon becasue my brain can't seem to comprehend how the market ward system was/is different than what we have now. Can you elaborate on this point?

Also, I made over 100 million gil with my "Terrible" "buy from stack" idea which they had in 1.0. I guess I was one of the luck ones .

Market Wards were a location you would travel to, retainers would need to be placed in these locations by the players, and each area had a theme that you got a tax break on if you sold the right items in.

Bazaar was an option you had on your character, you could set yourself up to be a traveling retainer, people could browse and buy from you on the spot.

This is the only system that would even remotely work with buying a single item from a stack, OUTSIDE of the Market Board. On the MB, you should still NOT be allowed to buy a specific amount from a stack. As so many have explained until blue in the face, this would hurt the whole system.

Again, you are diverging from topic. We are not arguing tax, both systems have/had taxes associated with this way of selling (selling cloth in clothiers ward yielded 2.5% tax not 5% in 1.0). We are not talking about roaming bazaars (which would be cool to have again, but that is a different topic). So I will re-state to try and be more clear, how is the 2.0 system so much better than the 1.0 system in terms of HOW items are sold?

Knowing that, I would sell in stacks of 3, 6, 9, etc, etc. So lets say I decide to make stacks of 9 @ 9k/stack (1k for each Darksteel Ore). Again, maybe I am just slow at putting stuff on the MW through my retainer, but that takes a bit of time to put up 11 of these sales. OK, so I have put my stuff on my retainer and head off to bed (I usually adjust/add stuff before heading to sleep). I come back the next night and find that people put stacks for 7k-8.5k for 9 ores. To be competitive, I will have to reduce all 11 of my sales (again, it might be faster for you but that takes a bit of time doing that 11 times.) If I could put all my 99 @ 1k each, I could accomplish this in 1/11th the time and have 10 other spots to put other crap that I have accumulated.

Because this would break the entire system. You still dont get it, nobody is getting it like at all. Give me a second I have to try really hard to find a way to say this for you to understand.

Ok.. You have 99 DST ore, you want 1k each or youll cry. You want to list 99, sold 1 by 1, at 1,000 gil each. This is a magical fix in your mind, there is nothing humanly wrong with it, its perfect.

WAIT.. I have 99 DST ore, I want to sell them 1 by 1, I think I will ask for 999 gil for them.

What just happened? How did your brilliant plan go wrong? I dont understand.. Even selling individual items from a stack, I still undercut you! UH OH! Guess what, now you cant even sell 3, 6, 9 at 1k per, everyone and anyone is buying ALL mine at 999. Im part of 'Mine Over Matter' FC, we are an end game mining progression FC.

We have 21,452 DarkSteel Ore in our Company Chest. Do you have more then us? I doubt it, guess what, until we leave this game.. We now sell Darksteel Ore and you will never do so again. Oops, as I typed this you listed at 998. So as punishment, we dropped the cost to 666.

Again, how will this break the system??? Please let me know because this still eludes me.

OK...So let me try and explain my point in another way. The amount of effort/time it took me to sell my entire stack of 99 @ 1k each was stupidly mind numbing. Maybe some people like doing mind numbing repetitive tasks for hours on end, but I do not.

In 1.0, if I wanted to sell all 99 of my Darksteel Ore @ 1k each it would take me about 45 seconds to a minute. With 2.0 to sell all 99 of my DarkSteel Ore @ 1k each I would have to do either, a) sell one stack of 99 at 99k (whcih no one will buy) or b) manually split my stack into portions and sell each of those portions seperately (which would take alot of time). Lets say i chose choice "b" from above, If i wanted to lower my selling price of the ore from 1k to 500 each, I would have to update ALL my posts.

This is cumbersone to like the absurdity level.

Read above and try your hardest to understand why you cant have both, without bazaar/mark wards.

Again, please please please, do tell how outside of the TAX rate being different depending on where you sold your itemd are the market wards different than the market boards.


Last point:

So the question I want to ask is: What really bothers you? Was it too cumbersome?

Yes, yes, and double yes

Ultimately, it depends on the gap between the aggregated supply and demand. Selling singles from stacks will cause the price to arrive at the 'real' market rate quicker, and probably less variation. Also, it will take away some of the trading strategies available now. So the good and bad depends on your perspective from the buyer or seller's point of view.

Yup I agree with your statement. The fact remains why did they change from the old system, seemed to work fine in the prior version.

Thanks

[MentalPoison]

So what? If you have 21452 of something and decide to sell it at 666, then that's overwhelming supply and that item is really worth 666. Then he either undercuts you to 665 or also sells it at 666 and you both have an equal chance of being bought from. And it only takes him one click, not 40. After 4 pages you still haven't explained why this is "bad" and "broken".

I dont understand why you guys are lying, exaggerating, and bending the reality.. To make a point?

They wont both sell, ONE will be on the very top and ONLY that ONE will be sold from. Seriously you cannot just make up stuff like "Itll sell because suddenly people will buy 4-5 down the list!". It most certainly will not sell.

You're trying so hard to be an e-thug, that you refuse to even acknowledge the truthful explanation. I am going to offer it to you one more time and ignore you if you still are not intelligent enough to grasp it.

Darksteel ore, 99 stack, 666 per.
Darksteel ore, 6 stack, 888 per.
Darksteel ore, 1, 1111 per.

All three sell. So thats THREE listings selling, instead of 1, this thread seeks to promote a system where ONLY ONE SELLS FOREVER. There will be no more competitive selling, versatility to the market, or room for new market goers to make a profit. That is a FACT and I do not care if you dont think so or not. It does not change the fact.

Neither system is bad nor broken...it's just a market rule. Looking at it from a macro point of view, it all depends on how the dev wants the economy to be.

On one hand, what we have now allows seller more flexibility in the pricing of their goods. On the other hand, allowing to buy single item from stack enables the buyer to obtain the quantity of goods they need at the lowest possible price. Either one is fine with me.

So the question I want to ask is: What really bothers you? Was it too cumbersome? If so why not just proposed to make it less cumbersome rather than changing the trading mechanics?

Is it the trading mechanics? Both have their pros and cons, and requires different trading strategy. You may think you know how to trade in a market with different trading mechanics, are you really sure of that? What makes you think that if you can't figure out this trading mechanics that you'll be able to figure out others?

Addressing Sinbios's question, the price which clears the market is much more complicated than that. Ultimately, it depends on the gap between the aggregated supply and demand. Selling singles from stacks will cause the price to arrive at the 'real' market rate quicker, and probably less variation. Also, it will take away some of the trading strategies available now. So the good and bad depends on your perspective from the buyer or seller's point of view.

Oh my goodness, thank god someone else came in and started making sense. I was so worried for a bit there.

But yes, very good post. Some of you should re-read this several times.

Yes, I find the system very cumbersome to use at this point. Maintaining 10 listings of one item at different stack sizes takes a long time, and it's not even guaranteed to sell. It would be much better to have guaranteed sales by having buy orders, this fulfills the need for instant gratification of sales for some which is the root cause of frequent undercutting, and is healthier for the economy in the long run as prices will converge much more easily to the true price dictated by supply and demand since the actual amount of both will be plain to see.

More lies. You word things like "its not even guaranteed to sell", as if buying from a stack would create automatic sales for everyone. This is forum "spin" and has no basis in reality.

You also use another tactic I keep witnessing, the ole "Throw in another suggestion to work in tandem with this one!". This is not about Buy Orders, it is about BUYING INDIVIDUALLY FROM A STACK. Which will ruin the current market.

Stay on topic.

I had a question?

Judging from your lack of market knowledge, you should have several. Do not be so afraid of 'losing' an e-argument, as to not ask for others assistance in helping you understand the current systems.

Ok, first blist has a limit to how many people can be on there. Given that RMTs can create alot more chars and SE's inability to curb this my blist is kind-of full, hence they are filtered.

Ive been playing since the open beta, Blist is 45% full. Remove "deleted" from yours if you have so much trouble. Again this rationale is DECLINED due to it being a personal issue and not a economy problem.

Also, with your suggestion of saying "So and So's Kitchen is open, LvL 50 CUL!" isn't that the idea behind the creation of hte market wards/market boards? So that people do not have to waste their time doing that to make money?

Again declined, if youre too lazy to promote your craft, but cry when you cant sell things for what you want, in the amount you want.. Then YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, not the system. 40 retainers work when you actively sell, then fill them for when youre not online. Still kinda laughing at "waste their time", you guys are so entitled its outrageous. You know that whatever craft you hit 50 in, there is 10s of THOUSANDS of other people at 50 in them? Everything is a "waste of time" with you guys. Restocking retainers, keeping up with the market, and NOW even selling to players at the prices YOU want, in the amount YOU want.. Is a waste of time.

With this logic, isnt simply playing a "waste of time"?

I am sorry, now where did I ever say that I was "a struggling street crafter" as you put it? Can you please provide me the quotes and the post #s. To my knowledge I haven't.

You are having trouble selling in this market, if you werent you wouldnt be trying to ruin the market. Im sorry but the whole "I made 10 trillion in FF7" doesnt fly either, nobody cares about another game.

The funny part is how eventhough im one of the most successful on my server... I still DO NOT want to corner my markets to the extreme this thread's idea would create.

That would be a waste of time, as they say.

You might want to do something completely different (ie pick up a hatchet or alembic). These are the people I am talking about.

You didnt keep it simple, you just finally explained what you meant instead of assuming everyone was in your head.

So a level 30 botonist and a level 30 Alchemist. Great examples! I know one of each, real life friends too, so I have the perfect way to explain it to you.

When they sell items, its usually not HQ, so they will have a few HQ and lots of RQ. A level 45 for instance, would HQ those same items, with RQ mats.

So the level 45 might sell several stacks of said items, HQ, for a price that is even better then RQ, or at least more tempting. Now our little lvl 30 friend, he comes in and does what the market currently is made for him to do.. He sells small stacks at a higher mark up.

Thats it, no magic or voodoo, just a properly working economic system. Can you even imagine if he couldnt sell the same item differently! This poor lvl 30 and all the lvl 30s would quit the game.

Are you implying you think level 30s should be forced to quit the game?

I didn't want you to play devil's advocate, I just wanted to point out an assumption that you are using in your argument. When you say "rich enough to overpay on lower level items are you talking about the "low-level gear" or "low-level material?" We should only be talking about materials since this topic is about selling from stacks and material (and food and potions) are the only thing the OP is talking about.

I sure do hope the "Buy 1 from a stack or game is broken!" didnt include items that dont stack............... That is enough periods to show I had to pause at that, right?

Anyway ive seen people do another job and BUY up the stuff they could make. This saves them time. You seek to remove this. Noone would buy 1 Darksteel HQ ore at 999, if there is 172 stacks sold by me at 666 per. They would just buy 1 from my endless stacks.

Again, you are diverging from topic. We are not arguing tax, both systems have/had taxes associated with this way of selling (selling cloth in clothiers ward yielded 2.5% tax not 5% in 1.0). We are not talking about roaming bazaars (which would be cool to have again, but that is a different topic). So I will re-state to try and be more clear, how is the 2.0 system so much better than the 1.0 system in terms of HOW items are sold?

This was one of the best forum moves ive seen in awhile. Ask me a question about something you didnt know, then tell me im diverging from the topic when you force me to explain it to you.

Seriously I smiled at how well played that was. Anyway I now refuse your question, as the system in 1.0 has nothing to do with this topic, as you stated. You know because of the whole fool me twice shame on me gimmick.

Again, how will this break the system??? Please let me know because this still eludes me.

The current system:

You: 1 DarkSteel Ore, 999 per
Me: 10 Darksteel Ore, 777 per

Both sell.

The threads proposed system:
You: 1 Darksteel Ore, 999 per
Me: 3,960 DarkSteel Ore, 777 per.

Mine sells, forever. You will never ever even remotely sell at all.

NOW BE CAREFUL HERE.. Remember the whole point for YOU is that checking retainers, is cumbersome... Adjusting prices, is cumbersome.. Keeping up with the market, is cumbersome.

So if you dare try to rebuttal the above, do so WITHOUT using all the things you refuse to do in the current system. They dont exist, because they are part of your argument against and you seem smart enough to know you cant have it both ways.

Good luck!

OK...So let me try and explain my point in another way. The amount of effort/time it took me to sell my entire stack of 99 @ 1k each was stupidly mind numbing. Maybe some people like doing mind numbing repetitive tasks for hours on end, but I do not.

Let me stop you there.. Say youre on my server and we both selling Darksteel ore. Do you honestly think I care what you think your time was worth? Oh I better not sell so this poor guy can sell his hard earned stuff! No, noone will think like that.

While you struggled to sell your entire stack of 99 at 1k each, I sold my entire stack in HALF the time, at 1.5-2k each, by simply breaking them into smaller numbers.

You just got Final Fantasied bro.

In 1.0, if I wanted to sell all 99 of my Darksteel Ore @ 1k each it would take me about 45 seconds to a minute. With 2.0 to sell all 99 of my DarkSteel Ore @ 1k each I would have to do either, a) sell one stack of 99 at 99k (whcih no one will buy) or b) manually split my stack into portions and sell each of those portions seperately (which would take alot of time). Lets say i chose choice "b" from above, If i wanted to lower my selling price of the ore from 1k to 500 each, I would have to update ALL my posts.

This is cumbersone to like the absurdity level.

This is your problem ONLY and im not discussing 1.0, this is 2.0. For now on, you set the tone. We will no longer be doing hypothetical scenarios in place of logical arguments.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Above you describe the current system.. You want to undercut everyone else and quickly. This is called the 'I like me more then I like you' complex. Its where to you, your stuff is much cooler then everyone elses same exact stuff. So youre too arrogant or lazy to 'work' the system.

Whats the next choice? Break the system so you dont have to learn how to do it anymore.

Sadly for you and this thread, its just a poorly thought out idea and will never work here.

Again, please please please, do tell how outside of the TAX rate being different depending on where you sold your itemd are the market wards different than the market boards.

Oh sure man, this is so easy for me to do, with just the tiniest bit of common sense.

See a Market Board (Auction House) is a location where everything is sold at the same time and listed for you to see. Market Wards required GOING to and "digging" through. You could find a great deal, while right next to it is the same item at twice the price. Lazy people, like those who say everything to do with the market is "cumbersome", would see what they wanted and buy it.. Oblivious to a cheaper one right next to it.

So essentially you could have deal divers and cumbersomers work side by side!

Yup I agree with your statement. The fact remains why did they change from the old system, seemed to work fine in the prior version.

Thanks

Why did they change bazaar/market wards to begin with? It was the perfect version. When they did that, 1.0 had next to noone playing it. 2.0 is a thriving game and requires the current system, over 1.0s later system, to be successful. Bringing back 1.0s original system of bazaar/market wards would be the most perfect system.

Start a new thread and request that, because currently the system is too good for many of us to see it changed into the crap heap suggested in this thread.

[Sinbios]

They wont both sell, ONE will be on the very top and ONLY that ONE will be sold from.

Um, yeah, until someone else changes their price in response.

The threads proposed system:
You: 1 Darksteel Ore, 999 per
Me: 3,960 DarkSteel Ore, 777 per.

Mine sells, forever. You will never ever even remotely sell at all.

I just explained what happens in this scenario in the real world instead of Bizzybeast La-la Land. Do you think the other person is stuck at 999g and incapable of changing the price, and you have the monopoly on it forever?

Next state, after the other person notices that you've undercut them:
Someone else: 1 Darksteel Ore, 776 per
Bizzybeast: 3,960 DarkSteel Ore, 777 per.

Or alternatively, if they're not a greedy, vindictive asshole who likes to push the price down to "punish" other players:
Someone else: 1 Darksteel Ore, 777 per
Bizzybeast: 3,960 DarkSteel Ore, 777 per.

What now? Your move. It's no longer true that

Mine sells, forever. You will never ever even remotely sell at all.

So how is this system broken? This is what you've failed to explain, again and again. I don't want to hear a long winded spiel about how we're all idiots who don't understand your grand vision, I want a simple, succinct explanation of 1) what happens in this scenario and 2) why that is "bad" and "broken".

NOW BE CAREFUL HERE.. Remember the whole point for YOU is that checking retainers, is cumbersome... Adjusting prices, is cumbersome.. Keeping up with the market, is cumbersome.

So if you dare try to rebuttal the above, do so WITHOUT using all the things you refuse to do in the current system. They dont exist, because they are part of your argument against and you seem smart enough to know you cant have it both ways.

It seems you've missed the point completely. Adjusting the price for 10 different listings of one item, because you're forced to split a single item into 10 listings of different stack sizes, is what is cumbersome about the current system. In the proposed system you only have to adjust it ONCE.

Seriously you cannot just make up stuff like "Itll sell because suddenly people will buy 4-5 down the list!". It most certainly will not sell.

Quote where I said that, verbatim. Who's making stuff up now?

You're trying so hard to be an e-thug, that you refuse to even acknowledge the truthful explanation.

That's rich, coming from you. Seems like I'm the one offering a truthful explanation, and you're the one who doesn't acknowledge it?

I am going to offer it to you one more time and ignore you if you still are not intelligent enough to grasp it.

Ah yes the good old Bizzybeast standby. "If you don't agree with me you're just not intelligent enough." Nice.

[MentalPoison]

Hina you have to try to ignore people like Sinbio, because he will not understand anything outside of his closed mind. Then he will throw around empty insults so youre forced to ignore him. You are about the dozenth person to 'get it' here and say very similar, which I thank you so very much for being brave enough to step into this mess to protest the intolerable wrong in here.

It doesnt even matter if he knew about my schizophrenic cousin, who recently passed away, as his cowardly forum rage just makes him say anything in a pathetic attempt to get leverage in an otherwise losing battle. So I will just report him for this disgusting low life attack on me and my family, over a video game none the less and im currently searching for a way to block his posts. Ive read enough from him and its obvious he is only around trolling and trying to offend anyone he can.