XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[wonka11]

So sad, but so true. I'm levelling my pld and switching to him as my main when he hits 50. I even have a garuda sword ready.

Disagree. By the time damage hits those numbers, regardless of Paladins mitigation, both will be dead due to the sheer amount of damage incoming as the Paladin's health pool does not compensate.

If there is ever a point that a Warrior is being one or two shotted by a monster, it will be the exact same for the Paladin.

The real questions are, despite all the terrible math going on in every thread:

1. What will both classes look like stat wise after Crystal Tower comes out.

2. What stats are actually useful and how Warrior damage / health mechanic will scale.


If you hear anything else in here, its just by people attempting to sound important using over simplified math with no hard evidence or statistical data to prove it.

Inb4paladin'pro's
Inb4warriorssuck
Inb4badhealerscomplainingaboutwarriors

[PessimiStick]

Disagree. By the time damage hits those numbers, regardless of Paladins mitigation, both will be dead due to the sheer amount of damage incoming as the Paladin's health pool does not compensate.

If there is ever a point that a Warrior is being one or two shotted by a monster, it will be the exact same for the Paladin.

Except that the Paladin has vastly superior cooldowns, and takes less healing to get back to full, meaning it's much more likely he will survive than the Warrior. They both have the exact same EHP (well minus the super-minuscule HP difference in the classes, ~85) under passive conditions.

The real questions are, despite all the terrible math going on in every thread:

1. What will both classes look like stat wise after Crystal Tower comes out.

Regardless of the answer, PLD will still be better, so I'm not sure how this is a "real" question.

and how Warrior damage / health mechanic will scale.

Not enough to match PLD's scaling, since they scale with incoming damage.

If you hear anything else in here, its just by people attempting to sound important using over simplified math with no hard evidence or statistical data to prove it.

Math doesn't make you sound important, it just makes you right.

[Taemek]

Lol, nice. But calculations are pretty far off from what I'm seeing, and I'm not sure how you're getting them.

Valk's damage formula, which has been pretty good at estimating IB damage (e.g. Kunkka v. Faction), predicts 1.3756 crit-adjusted damage per potency. This is 1650.72 healed from IB after Maim and Storm's Eye. At 4 uses per minute (1 per 20s plus Infuriate), that's about 110 health per second excluding other cooldowns. If you get 2 of them off in Berserk per 90s, you'd be at less than 125 per second average (assuming 40% net damage boost from Berserk). Second Wind heals half as much as Inner Beast at 120-second intervals; it should be about 6.875 HP per second in over time. Thus, you're invariably less than 132 HP/s. That is the absolute limit, and thoroughly impractical. It also ignores overheal. Furthermore, if you look at the simplest no-off-GCD rotation, the average number of Wrath stacks is 2.33, or a 7% healing boost. If you compare to off-GCD rotations, you will vary between 6.0% (drop ability immediately before IB, which is exactly what you'll be doing with Berserk) and 7.7% (drop ability immediately after IB, thoroughly impractical). No matter how you slice it, Wrath's average bonus should be around 7% for a maximum-IB-spam setup. Now, that mitigation amount is tied to enemy damage input; you are healed as much as you are damaged. You adjust for amount recovered by self-healing, then divide by healing bonus according to this effective formula:

Wrath healing load relieved = [1 - 1/(1 + Wrathbonus)] * [damage taken rate - (self-healing rate * overheal ratio)]

Thus, at 1000 incoming DPS and 7% average Wrath bonus, you recover an effective 56.8 HP per second additional. This comes out to a total of around 188 mitigation per second at absolute max. Comparatively, if PLD is blocking 5% more incoming damage compared to WAR (which cannot block at all), then you expect a best-case comparison to be 240 passively mitigated by PLD compared to 188 actively mitigated by WAR. Just sitting on Wrath stacks gives you 130/s, which speaks about as ill of WAR's self-healing as could be imagined. If you want to include Rampart, Sentinel and Hallowed Ground as a rate, then PLD would be effectively just under 315 per second at 1000 incoming DPS. PLD will get all of that, of course, but if you want to look at what a WAR will realistically get, you can pretty much shave 20% off the top due to overheals and imperfect use. In any realistic endgame scenario, PLD will mitigate twice as much as WAR or more, plus superior burst reserve.

//EDIT: I realized that I forgot Inner Release and Thrill of Battle. IR will increase average self-healing rate by less than 1 per second (0.835). ToB at 6300 HP will give you 1260 back, or 10.5 per second when time-weighted. Still less than 200 in the very best case.

While I am not disagreeing with you here, I would like to point something out I noticed has been not addressed as yet.

Only issue here is, it is not fair to break down the heals from a Warrior in to a HPS form as it dilutes it's power and reason/time of use.

It is simply a situational use and burst healing and can spike anywhere and upwards of 1k+ hps for 2 - 4 seconds if used correctly and in conjuction with other heals + skills.

As you have shown when broken down in to a HPS form again, is not how they should be refered too or calculated. Although i get the point which is to measure it's mitigation value, just I think it plays a much larger role then people lead on to believe and it gets clouded by math a little too much and therefor becomes undervalued when people have the mindset that it is not worth it.

All I am saying is, the power of the skills is much greater then when measured as a form of *per second.

[wonka11]

Math doesn't make you sound important, it just makes you right.

Unless its done wrong, which it is, has been, and continues to be on these forums - especially since we don't know how stats exactly work.

Again disputable. I think people have taken a popular opinion with only theory crafting and poor numbers supporting it (including miscalculations of how stats worked) and then expected something totally different.
I say give it some time, I'm going to bet Warrior does just as fine as Paladin after they both get geared, and good Warriors already hold their own pretty damn well.
The only thing people are bitching on is that they cant take two dreads, which again, is temporary, and for the fact that we're missing a whole gap range of gear and then trying to base an assumption on a class that requires the top level gear to reach what is considered an exponential efficiency/potential, I think it was way too early to make such a blunt assumption.

[Tronic]

Again disputable. I think people have taken a popular opinion with only theory crafting and poor numbers supporting it (including miscalculations of how stats worked) and then expected something totally different.

I expected to be more or less on the same footing as PLD when doing endgame content. Alas, this is not so, as I routinely get my ass handed to me in coil where a pally gets to live. Not to mention getting a tanking spot is hard enough as it is, since most people cringe when they see a war tanking. How are you faring in coil?

I say give it some time, I'm going to bet Warrior does just as fine as Paladin after they both get geared, and good Warriors already hold their own pretty damn well.

Time won't make a difference. As long as the present mechanics remain the same, there will always be a new dungeon coming out harder than the previous one, and PLD will always be better at it than WAR. Once you get Coil on farm, WAR will be great again, just like he is in AK right now. But by then there'll be a new challenge, and he won't be wanted there. It's the neverending story.

[Terabyt3]

Taemek you're just as bad on this thread as the last!

You're saying measuring in self heals per second is inaccurate and it's all about timing???

If you measure in self heals per second you are actually making warrior look better as you don't take into account overhealing yourself. An average is the ONLY way to compare WAR's main form of mitigation (self healing... not avoidance that you kept stating elsewhere lol) to pld's passive mitigation + cd suite.



PLD's total mitigation is somewhere in the region of 20% of total damage (incluing all cooldowns over that period.) Once DPS is higher than WARs self heal per second x 5~ A PLD is better. (Probably even less due to overheal, skill timing and the fact that because it;s not passive you can be stunned and paralyzed etc whereas pld is passive.

Deny it all you want but there it is clear as day without numbers. Once you are in that scenario you're screwed. And because that's a best case scenario chance are you'll be screwed before that!

[Casper]

Only issue here is, it is not fair to break down the heals from a Warrior in to a HPS form as it dilutes it's power and reason/time of use.

It is simply a situational use and burst healing and can spike anywhere and upwards of 1k+ hps for 2 - 4 seconds if used correctly and in conjuction with other heals + skills.

All I am saying is, the power of the skills is much greater then when measured as a form of *per second.

Oh my god, you are completely right ! Okay, let's do this ! Hmm, so i guess if i have to protect myself as best as i can for 2-4 second as a pld, i will use hallowed ground. I can now sustain one million of million of million DPS during this time period.

I did the computation for Pld. I let you do all the math for warrior, then we compare which is better ?

[PessimiStick]

The only thing people are bitching on is that they cant take two dreads

Which is a clear sign that they're flatly inferior to PLDs. One class can take that much damage and live, the other cannot. I don't know how you expect it to get any clearer.

which again, is temporary, and for the fact that we're missing a whole gap range of gear and then trying to base an assumption on a class that requires the top level gear to reach what is considered an exponential efficiency/potential, I think it was way too early to make such a blunt assumption.

News Flash: The PLDs will get better gear too. Guess what happens then: They get even better.

[Taemek]

Taemek you're just as bad on this thread as the last!

You're saying measuring in self heals per second is inaccurate and it's all about timing???

If you measure in self heals per second you are actually making warrior look better as you don't take into account overhealing yourself. An average is the ONLY way to compare WAR's main form of mitigation (self healing... not avoidance that you kept stating elsewhere lol) to pld's passive mitigation + cd suite.



PLD's total mitigation is somewhere in the region of 20% of total damage (incluing all cooldowns over that period.) Once DPS is higher than WARs self heal per second x 5~ A PLD is better. (Probably even less due to overheal, skill timing and the fact that because it;s not passive you can be stunned and paralyzed etc whereas pld is passive.

Deny it all you want but there it is clear as day without numbers. Once you are in that scenario you're screwed. And because that's a best case scenario chance are you'll be screwed before that!

No thats not what I was saying at all, not even remotely close. Never, ever, anywhere did I say it was inaccurate at all, I agreed with the findings, however I do not think it is fair to measure the *usefulness* of the abilities when utilized correctly. As I said, Warrior self heals is burst healing and as such can and does spike at 1k+ HPS for a few seconds, so when situationally measured they are more powerful then eHPS, when measured to determine thier mitigation value we use eHPS but they appear weak which is why most people think they are not worth using.

In other words, people don't fully understand the importance of Warrior healing and most think its crap and they don't use it based on that premise and they rely on healers to pick up the slack.

I am however, starting to question your reading comprehension ability, not sure how you missed the whole sentence where I stated, I wasn't disagreeing with the findings, which just so happened to be at the very beginning of the post to save this sort of misunderstanding.

[Terabyt3]

No thats not what I was saying at all, not even remotely close. Never, ever, anywhere did I say it was inaccurate at all, I agreed with the findings, however I do not think it is fair to measure the *usefulness* of the abilities when utilized correctly. As I said, Warrior self heals is burst healing and as such can and does spike at 1k+ HPS for a few seconds, so when situationally measured they are more powerful then eHPS, when measured to determine thier mitigation value we use eHPS but they appear weak which is why most people think they are not worth using.

In other words, people don't fully understand the importance of Warrior healing and most think its crap and they don't use it based on that premise and they rely on healers to pick up the slack.

I am however, starting to question your reading comprehension ability, not sure how you missed the whole sentence where I stated, I wasn't disagreeing with the findings, which just so happened to be at the very beginning of the post to save this sort of misunderstanding.

The ONLY way war will get 1k heals per sec is if you take a sample of 5 seconds where you pop cooldowns.

You are completely using the term hps wrong. How on earth do you get 1000 hps..... Thrill of battle is possibly the biggest healer (outside of a crit hit IB with all cd's) and thats a 120 sec cd. So that alone (assuming a 1.5k insta heal from it) is only 12.5 heals per sec.......(1500/120 (heal ammount divided by recast) Where exactly are you getting the other 987.5hps from?

Still waiting on you posting your alt btw.

Edit: I just know I'm gonan have to explain how to work out hps more to Taemek so some more examples with rough numbers from my warrior (almost full dl and +1 bravura).

Thrill of battle: Roughly 1.5k heal, recast 120s
1500/120=12.5 12.5hps
Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps
Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps
Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps

There are all your self hps ability averages at 50. 12.5+15.83+112.5+18.67=159.5

Assuming you get the perfect roation 159.5 hps is what you'll get with these numbers. So your claim of 1000 hps is WAY WAY off. Unless you're IB hits for 6k heals everytime..... lol!

Edit again: Oh and before anyone screams "Aaaaargh keep wrath stacks at 5 at all times for extra healzzzz!" that will restrict you to only 2 IB's a minute. Dropping your average IB to 1200~ and hps from IB to this:

(1200x2)/60=40 You've just lowered your self healing WARs main form of mitigation by 72.5 hps

Assumig you ALWAYS have 15% extra heals (which you don't because of ramp up time) You need to be recieving 483.33 external healing EVERY SECOND! To make up for not using IB.

Whereas Using IB everytime you Have the opportunity (as example above 4.5 times a minute. You will still average at 7.5% extra healing AND the 112.5 hps from IB.

Holding wrath is trying to play WAR like a PLD. It does not compute.

In conclusion: You should blow IB as often as you can it's your best form of mitigation. With these numbers I mitigate around 160dps incoming.

When a PLD (roughly 20% mitigation on average of incoming dps) is fight something that is doing more than 800~dps with same set up they become more effective.

Anyone that's been to coil will know around 3 stacks snake will be above 800 incoming dps.

I rest my case.

...so you're averaging 190DPS with Bloodbath up?
It's funny, actually, that even the people talking about how bad WAR is will overestimate the power of WAR's abilities.

What world are you living in? These are stated to be grosely innacurate and what everyone claims that war can do. I say MULTIPLE times they are generous numbers and higher than actually possible. Each is the PERFECT WORLD settings everyone goes on about and even then THEY STILL DON'T work so well!

Storm path heals for nothing whats the point of math on it?
Heals for nothing the moment you get it.
You'll hit a storm path once, butchers block probably twice or throw in a storm eye. It'll probably be 18-2x something seconds before your next storm path .
Calculate Storm path like this: ((280/2)/7.5) multiplied by Nothing = 0.
If end-game Wars have ~7.5k health, how much is 140 health? 1-2%. You need a microscope to see storm path move your health bar.

Mutually exclusive with IB and Bloodbath. You need SE for damage on both of those. Count this one as a flat zero, because you're not using it. (It would be negligible anyway, but seriously, not happening.)

Hmm the 10% extra damage from Eye lasts 15 seconds assuming you pop that each time you IB and bloodbath that's (with these best and overrated numbers) 1.15 hps from Bloodbath and 11.2 from your inner beasts.

And that's from a seriously over estimated IB (how many you can get in a minute) AND over estimated bloodbath.

With Path However at a potency of 250. you'll can hit 220-280 no crit. Top end that's better hps than Eye grants you when it is conjoined with Bloodbath or IB.

It's a pitiful ammount but grants a bigger hps than Eye does.

With bloated IB, Bloodbath and eye active for 10% 12.35 (That's generous numbers!)
With Path instead of Eye that's 18~hps.

10% of small number are small numbers.

I will have to disagree, and here's why. When not in Bloodbath, you will recover 900 potency per Inner Beast. Storm's Eye will increase this by 100 potency. Storm's Path recovers 125 base potency, but is reduced by Defiance. Therefore, it actually recovers 93.75 potency. As long as SE/SP is used in a 1:1 ratio with Inner Beast, then it is smarter to use Storm's Eye regardless of whether you are in Bloodbath. You could theoretically use a SE/SP/IB rotation, but that is not possible while tanking -- you will lose always lose aggro without Butcher's Block. That rotation is therefore not worth considering.

No it's 10%. 10% of 900 is 90. and that is in a one shot not in hps.

work out the average hps of IB (Bloated up there is 112~ish). If the extra 10% of that and 5% of bloodbath (because eye buff is half of bloodbaths time) total to less than Storms Path hps then storms path is more effective to hps than using Eye.

Use Eye if you need extra aggro, dps rush phase or at full health. otehrwise use path, you'll get better hps than using eye combined with other self heals.

Storm's Eye does not increase damage by 10%, it decreases enemy resistance by 10%, which effectively increases damage by 11.1111% (1/0.9 = 1.1111111). Because the two are used at the same rate in your normal rotation, the absolute potency of each is representative of their rates. The place it would not be representative is in the Infuriate use of IB, where Storm's Eye increases its lead. It is not necessary to even consider this, however, because Storm's Eye is a superior choice without it.

In general, you assumed quite a bit more heal from SP than occurs. You assumed a use of SP per 7.5 seconds, which is not possible to begin with, or there would be no use of Inner Beast at all. You then overestimated damage per shot, just adding to the issue. In a rotation, you will get 3 uses of Storm's Path per minute, each of which will heal a meager 93.75 potency. After Maim, you'll hit about 438.75 HP per minute, or 7.3125 HP per second.

It heals for more than that. Potency 250-5% (Defiance - 25% Maim +20%) So 118.75 potency healed?
Assuming 3 per minute that's 356.25 hp potency recovered in that minute by using Path instead of Eye

If you use 3 IB's and 1/2 a bloodbath (because storms eye only lasts for half bb duration) with 11% increase you'd get the following benefit:

IB's hit for 300+20%+11.1% so 399.9 potency and healing for that x3 = 1199.7 potency of healing. Over a minute 3599.1 healing over a minute - but we're only interested in that extra 11.1% damage.
299.7 healing is granted by that 11.1%

With bloodbath thrown in the mix that 11.1% increase will be 11.1% of (dps/4) THEN halfed thanks to the debuffs short duration.
Around 120 is realsitic with IB and Fracture included do you think?
So that means the 11.1% bonus grants us a measely 49.95 extra healing
11.1% of (dps/4) multiplied by 15 (max seconds available in that minute gets worse as recast is 90secs for bb)



Together that's 349.65 potency in a minute using storm's Eye each time you use bloodbath and IB.
Whereas 356.25 from just using 3 Path's instead.

Admittedly the difference is minimal at first but take into account keeping Eye up each time you use bloodbath and IB and a higher than average dps there in the example and BB is on a 90 second recast puts path even further in front for hps.

999 over 3 minutes with Eye
1068.75 over 3 minutes with Path

To get the eye healing over a minute you must maintain 120dps, get 3 IB's in every minute, ensure Eye is active for bloodbath and every IB (which wouldnt be the case as you'd only use a maim combo twice in one minute).

Whereas with the Path you only have to land 3 paths in a minute

Much less upkeep for more heals.
(I'm not arguing btw I genuinely like talking about this crap )