Quote Originally Posted by Faction View Post
Um yeah sorry that's not enough. Some of us have actually tested this. You're gonna have to do better than anecdotes.
The only tests I've seen (which Terabyte references) did not actually arrive at any real conclusion about the relative threat performance of Shield Oath to Sword Oath because they had issues with race playing some kind of factor wherein, with the same stats, whether they had Shield Oath or Sword Oath up, one of them continually pulled enmity. That's not evidence of superior enmity generation of one stance or the other. That's evidence of race playing some factor.

And I have actually tested this, though I'll admit that it wasn't a rigorously controlled test. I've had an AK group that I run with regularly. I've run the pack after the Demon Wall with and without Defiance up, using the same enmity generation rotation. When I've got Defiance up, they never even get close to my enmity generation; when I don't, the cushion I generate is *much* smaller (the difference is between the DPS/healer having a tiny sliver and one-quarter of comparative enmity).

That's not how Defiance or Shield Oath ever worked.
You don't understand math. Let me explain since you're having problems. Sword Oath represents a ~17.5% increase in total damage (it's actually closer to a 3-4% increase in total enmity generation because the high enmity of the Halone spam heavily dilutes the additional damage that Sword Oath provides; I didn't account for this when I did the math originally, however). Shield other represents dealing 80% of your previous damage. This means that you're comparing 117.5% of total damage to 80% of total damage. With a 2x multiplier, you're comparing 117.5% to 160%, which would have Shield Oath maintaining a 36% comparative advantage in enmity over Sword Oath. With a 1.75x multiplier, you're comparing 117.5% to 140%, which is a 19% comparative advantage.

You don't need an online calculator to figure that one out.
Except that you actually do, apparently. The math isn't that hard; you just have to actually understand it first (which you've never really shown a particular predilection towards).

Even being anecdotal, if you had played beta you'd see a night and day difference between phase 3 and now.
And I'm not claiming that there isn't. From everything I've heard, the enmity metagame in p3 was a complete joke because it was utterly pointless. The devs reduced the enmity multipliers of the tank stances to ensure that it wasn't a joke (which I support; a challenging enmity metagame is something that I actually enjoy) but that's a far cry from completely stripping them. Anyone who hits 30 on MRD, gets Defiance, and suddenly has an easier time maintaining enmity can tell you that Defiance provides more than it takes away. They may not be able to say exactly how much since it's not the difference between night and day, but it is present and tangible.

It doesn't take much for the tank stances to overcome the DPS-modes of their respective classes. The only way that they *wouldn't* is if the enmity modifier is both unequal for the both of them and only large enough to offset the damage reduction (so WAR would get a 33% increase in enmity whereas PLD would get a 25% increase). Even if it were only a 50% increase in enmity generation on both tank stances, you'd *still* see an advantage in total enmity generation.

As I've said, the only way that a tank-DPS in equivalent gear is ripping enmity off of a tank in tank stance is if the tank doesn't know how to maximize their enmity generation (which, as I've said numerous times, most tanks have no idea how to because they're not having to compete with another high enmity generator on a regular basis). Play against another tank that actually knows what they're doing and you won't see any issues. Play against another tank that doesn't and you'll see exactly what you describe.