An all-too-common mistake that tanks make.

[Ehayte]

So, this is fantastic is a neat little world, and the damage mitigation you get from parry/block (something like 6.15%-ish) is great to have applied when things go correctly. However, if I pull a group of mobs with a mark, and the SMN starts to drop AEs on the ground before the mobs even get to me, I kind of have to do what I can to get everything under control and keep it under control. If I try to move everything too soon, the MNK loses dps, the DRG loses dps, I could get a mob out of flash range and it could go stick to the pre-regening WHM or the too-early BLM, etc. I burn Provoke and lose some enmity potential on the main group, etc.

It also can sometime contradict another golden rule of tanking, which is: STAND STILL. For most of the melee dps in this, positioning matters quite a bit to maximize dps, if I can moving around during a fight, they are challenged to do their job correctly. So in the perfect situation, yeah the dps and healer give 4 seconds to get everything over to me and get aggro set so I can position everything nice and pretty, but in practice you will see tanks just eating the extra 6% incoming damage to help the dps increase their output by 10-20%, or higher in some cases, as if a tank loses enmity a DPS might have to stop doing damage all together to avoid dying : D

[PessimiStick]

However, if I pull a group of mobs with a mark, and the SMN starts to drop AEs on the ground before the mobs even get to me

Let them die. They'll learn after a few deaths.

[Ehayte]

Let them die. They'll learn after a few deaths.

I'd rather save the day, then educate them verbally, but point taken.

[PessimiStick]

I'd rather save the day, then educate them verbally, but point taken.

I find that bad players tend to become indignant when you correct them, but when you let them "learn" it themselves, they tend to stop. It sometimes takes complicity from the healer (i.e.: stop healing them because they're derptarded), but I find it to be fairly effective.

[Yiell]

you have a point mate.

[Kitru]

However, if I pull a group of mobs with a mark, and the SMN starts to drop AEs on the ground before the mobs even get to me, I kind of have to do what I can to get everything under control and keep it under control.

Shadow Flare barely tickles and applies a 20% slow to everything in there, which means that s/he's attempting to reduce your incoming damage by a very healthy margin. SMN AoE is actually predicated upon DoTing up a single target and Bane-cleaving those DoTs onto everything else, which takes 3 GCDs of set up and even longer to actually generate enough enmity to pull off of a tank that has generated more than token enmity on a target. If you're losing enmity because of a SMN throwing up their AoEs, you're doing something wrong. You'll have more problems with a BLM or a WHM dropping AoEs on a group than a SMN.

[Ehayte]

Snip

Thanks for the straw-man, Captain Argue.

[Kitru]

Thanks for the straw-man, Captain Argue.

That doesn't mean what you think it means. A straw man argument is restating your argument in simplistic terms so as to make it easier to take down. I specifically addressed a single portion of your argument that was explicitly wrong. That's a legitimate debate strategy because it undercuts the foundation of your argument by tackling it directly. A SMN dropping Shadow Flare before you start to pull (since they're not going to be able to AoE before you get to a target because, as previously mentioned, it requires that they DoT cleave) should not be a problem if you're a competent tank for the reasons I listed. You specifically stated that the SMN dropping that AoE made your life more difficult because you couldn't control the mobs as effectively; if you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd have no problem controlling the mobs.

[Ehayte]

Snip

A. I do not have issues holding aggro, and I never said that I did, I was simply responding to the OP's concerns, particularly concerning the first portion of a group dungeon encounter, and defending tanks who may not have perfect positioning all the time.

B. A straw-man argument is not just "Simplifying" an argument, it is doing EXACTLY what you said. Taking a small piece of what I said and saying that my entire argument is invalid because of a flaw or dependency in that portion of the argument. i.e. you are beating up a "straw-man" look-a-like of the main argument. In this case, you are saying that the SMN AE aggro spell should not be providing enough aggro to pull mobs off me ON THEIR WAY BACK TO ME AFTER A TAG. Uhh....


You are also missing the point that ANY form of aggro is going to make those mobs go haywire was they are on their way to me. A single point of damage would take that mob off its path to me, and onto the producer of that damage. As such, the miniscule damage done by the SMN AE + 20%, will still make the mobs scatter in an manner which I would not find optimal.

So let's forget all that, and say the SMN AE doesn't cause ANY aggro. Fine, replace it with a BLM nuking, a Bard shooting an arrow, and Dragoon throwing his spear, a WHM casting regen, a SCH casting Stoneskin, whatever you want, and the main point of my argument stays in tact.

[Kitru]

B. A straw-man argument is not just "Simplifying" an argument, it is doing EXACTLY what you said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

Read up on that. It's not just simplifying. Using a straw man is to "create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." I didn't replace your proposition with something superficially similar. I directly contradicted your point about SMN opening early and making it hard for you to position.

The entire basis of your argument was that positioning is difficult because you have issues keeping control and you brought up the SMN without referencing anything else. Keeping control is a non-issue if you know what you're doing, and, if you're having issues getting enemies to group up around you so that you can dump at least 1 AoE on them by the time a SMN finishes a 3 second cast and the animation finishes resolving, you're don't know what you're doing. Tanking is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. AoE tanking is not complicated: Shield Lob/Tomahawk, either wait for them to run to you (or, if your healer threw a HoT or a heal on you while you were running up, run past you), and then Flash/Overpower. Do that and you've got no problems whatsoever. At worst, your healers takes a hit or two to the face (which will hopefully teach them not to do that). Even when I'm running with total pugs, I don't have an issue with this kind of stuff because I simply don't give them the opportunity to screw up my pulls.

Furthermore, your argument that it's somehow difficult to get all enemies facing you without spinning in a circle is similarly ludicrous. You don't have to constantly spin enemies to keep them facing you; get on one side of em and they'll naturally form up in front of you, no need to spin at all.

You predicate your entire point about blocking not being as valuable as it's assumed to be by saying that (1) aggro is problematic which causes (2) problems with positioning. Your first supposition is wrong for numerous previously mentioned reasons. The second isn't even a problem unless you're acting like an idiot.

That's not a superficially similar argument. That *is* your argument.