[Dev1058] Hate Meter / Pros / Cons / Open Discussion

[Gracious]

Whm's can see who has hate and prepare.

DD's can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

Tanks can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

This enables the entire party to work together as a team for the best benefit of the party.
This is a good thing.

[Physic]

Unless everyone is stood around doing nothing you wont have 100% lol Its impossible really unless you can go into negative enmity which i doubt.

you will have 100% because they said you will see a % in comparison to who has hate, this means if you have hate, you really wont be getting any new info. as long as you are being targeted you are the one who your hate is being compared to

[Physic]

Whm's can see who has hate and prepare.

DD's can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

Tanks can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

This enables the entire party to work together as a team for the best benefit of the party.
This is a good thing.

they didnt say you could see other peoples hate yet, whm can only see how much hate they have in comparison to the person with agro. Of course people could call out their hate, but thats a different story

[Lerris]

Unless everyone is stood around doing nothing you wont have 100% lol Its impossible really unless you can go into negative enmity which i doubt.

you will have 100% because they said you will see a % in comparison to who has hate, this means if you have hate, you really wont be getting any new info. as long as you are being targeted you are the one who your hate is being compared to

The relevant section from Matsui's post:

Furthermore, a player’s enmity will be made constantly visible as a percentage of that of the party member being attacked. A feature whereby players may examine hate values for all party members is also under consideration for a future update.

[Gracious]

they didnt say you could see other peoples hate yet, whm can only see how much hate they have in comparison to the person with agro. Of course people could call out their hate, but thats a different story

Interesting. I like it better if the entire party could see each other's hate ratio's. Speaking as a healer in 11 doing endgame activities where I was the only healer in a group of 18, I was really shouting for joy when I saw this. Things go so fast endgaming I can see where this could be sooo useful. I guess if you could only see your own hate then you could adjust yourself down as needed. I would like it alot better if we could see everyone's hate ratio though.

[JAH]

Personally, it sounds like they are adding hate debugging and leaving it on to see the algorithm work lol

It definitely will be helpful in explaining how my lancer can steal hate from a gladiator or marauder higher level than me when I'm just buffing....

It's an insight on the hate algorithm and will make it easier for people to figure out the math of it. If they don't totally remove it at some point, they'll make it like /hpbar and allow it it to be hidden.

[origamikitsune]

Wheee. Lots of responses.

Okay, lots of responses, and now that I am more awake, I suppose I should address some points.

It seems to me after reading the points that people have made that you guys are right; it isn't about easy-mode v. challenging. I will concede that having a hate display simply moves the line of efficiency and narrows the range at which you can effectively operate your skills by giving you more information.

I guess, now, it looks more like an issues of tactical combat v. strategic combat, and both have there merits and flaws, and honestly, I like both. Just not sure which I like more. :/

I still have some concerns though. First, it does level the playing field. That is, someone who doesn't know their job well can perform better because they have more information. This is great particularly for casual players who simply do not have the time that say I have (all day every day) to learn their job. I still have an issue with it in that it creates a false sense of ability that could bite you in arse as you move towards harder and harder content.

As an addendum to the Pro's on my list, by simplifying the algorithms so much and by displaying hate, it gives SE a much narrower range to work with in terms of fine-tuning the combat. Because there is a narrower range of efficiently, they can more easily monitor battles, which will, ultimately, result in better combat.

This is good if... they actually do follow up on the idea that a boss with more HP does not a harder battle make. For now, I will give SE the benefit of the doubt and assume they will add variety to combat.

All that said, I still can't get over the simple idea that when it boils down to it, we already have a hate meter. If I'm playing my lancer, and I poke a mob, and it turns and looks at me, I just took hate. I really like that if I miss-judge my hate or a play my job poorly, there is a consequence to my action, and I really like that it is a surprise when I do. There will still be that sense to some degree with a hate meter, but to me, it seems that a hate monitor cheapens that. I also really like the idea of tighter, cleaner, smoother combat, because lets face it, it is really f$#!ng satisfying when you win a hard battle and you nail it perfectly. Hate meter encourages it.

So. Still on the fence about the issue. Thank you all for commenting on both sides; definitely some points I would not have considered. Thank you all who didn't make it personal, too, its nice to actual discourse on the subject.

[Physic]

All that said, I still can't get over the simple idea that when it boils down to it, we already have a hate meter. If I'm playing my lancer, and I poke a mob, and it turns and looks at me, I just took hate. I really like that if I miss-judge my hate or a play my job poorly, there is a consequence to my action, and I really like that it is a surprise when I do. There will still be that sense to some degree with a hate meter, but to me, it seems that a hate monitor cheapens that. I also really like the idea of tighter, cleaner, smoother combat, because lets face it, it is really f$#!ng satisfying when you win a hard battle and you nail it perfectly. Hate meter encourages it.

So. Still on the fence about the issue. Thank you all for commenting on both sides; definitely some points I would not have considered. Thank you all who didn't make it personal, too, its nice to actual discourse on the subject.

You guys talk about hate meters like DDs care, they love dipping in the hate sauce, how many times did a blm laugh as they got hit after a insane magic burst. Ever seen the berserk sidewinder barrage hit hit sidewinder ranger? As a pug i can give a dam if if i get hate, in fact i would be trying to take hate sometimes
light strike, discerning eye heavy heavy featherfoot raging invigorate, maybe simian, if i get the evade, blood weapon victimize boom.
second wind, diversion, ok man get it off me now.... hahah ha aah ahah fun times.

[Jinrya-Geki]

I am going to die a lot. When spell potency is fixed, I am going to make up for all the damage that should have been! I am not going to hold back. Stop telling me how to live my life! Get off my back!

In all seriousness I will listen to anyone who tells me to slow down damage, but if no one tells me I expect to be face floor on the ground dead for how much spell-slinging I am going to do. I accept my deaths for being my fault!

[Lerris]

There will of course be a difference in player skill levels. Since we're seeing percentages rather than absolute enmity values, 20% doesn't always mean the same thing. In the first seconds of a fight, it would probably be a bad idea to unleash your biggest attack at 20% enmity because the tank hasn't built a lot up yet. In the later stages of the fight, 20% probably means it's time to unleash everything you've got.
We'll quickly learn what damage our weaponskills do in relation to our basic attacks in order to convert that percentage to a number ( if a weaponskill does quadruple what a basic attack does and a basic attack increases your enmity by 2%, you can expect the weaponskill to increase your enmity by 8-10% at that time).

And when a mob has a hate-reset move...

The meter doesn't remove the need to pay attention. It does prevent those using unauthorized add-ons from gaining that particular advantage over those who don't.