WAR and Wrath: Important Mechanics Discussed.

[Kitru]

I am almost never able to spam halone combo in a DPS situation on my PLD. It pulls to much agro. Heck, sword oath riot blade combo alone with FoF almost pulls agro off the other tank but itself.

A competent tank will be able to keep enmity off of an equally or marginally better geared offtank. The problem is that there are a *lot* of incompetent tanks out there. PLD need only spam their Halone combo and use Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn along with Fight or Flight. WARs should use the BB>BB>SE rotation and learn to use Internal Release + Berserk whenever it's feasible.

I've never had an enmity problem as a PLD or a WAR as long as the off tank wasn't using their tank stance as well, even when they're doing their highest damage combos. When I off tank, however, I often have to reign myself in because the other tank doesn't know how to generate enmity effectively (I've met so many WARs that just spam BB without ever weaving in SE). The enmity multiplier for the tank stance may not be 2x, but it's definitely more than enough to overcome the additional enmity-by-damage of Sword Oath/non-Defiance.

[Hachiko]

A competent tank will be able to keep enmity off of an equally or marginally better geared offtank. The problem is that there are a *lot* of incompetent tanks out there. PLD need only spam their Halone combo and use Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn along with Fight or Flight. WARs should use the BB>BB>SE rotation and learn to use Internal Release + Berserk whenever it's feasible.

This is absolutely not true. A PLD in Sword Oath spamming Rage of Halone combo will ALWAYS pull off of any tank in the game assuming relatively equal gear. It is the highest enmity generation per second in the game. As a WAR there is no way you could hold aggro off of a paladin in sword oath spamming RoH.

In fact, this is the only reason PLD Dps isn't very viable as an off-tank: they can't do it without pulling aggro.

[Kitru]

This is absolutely not true. A PLD in Sword Oath spamming Rage of Halone combo will ALWAYS pull off of any tank in the game assuming relatively equal gear. It is the highest enmity generation per second in the game. As a WAR there is no way you could hold aggro off of a paladin in sword oath spamming RoH.

In fact, this is the only reason PLD Dps isn't very viable as an off-tank: they can't do it without pulling aggro.

Your entire premise is predicated upon the idea that the enmity generation increase from Defiance and Shield Oath is only enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt, which is not true. It may not be 2x like it used to be, but it is most definitely more than enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt. I know this because I've tanked while in Defiance and while outside of Defiance; I generate noticeably more enmity while in Defiance than while outside of it.

Sword Oath equates to, roughly, a 17.5% increase in total DPS without it active. If Shield Oath provides a 50% increase in enmity generation, it would equate to generating 20% more enmity than capable while outside of it. And that's a conservative estimate, honestly, because the enmity generation increase that I've seen is definitely more than a 2.12% increase. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually a 2x multiplier still, because that would be a 36% increase in total enmity generation. A 75% increase in enmity generation is a 19.1% increase.

I can tell you that even a PLD spamming Halone can't pull off of me while I'm playing a WAR or PLD, and I've seen them try. If the tank actually knows how to maximize their enmity generation rather than just doing barely enough, like spamming BB or not using CoS/SW, a tank playing DPS isn't going to be able to pull off of them. A bad tank is going to get a dps PLD ripping off of them insanely easily.

[Hachiko]

Your entire premise is predicated upon the idea that the enmity generation increase from Defiance and Shield Oath is only enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt, which is not true.

It's been demonstrated to be true. Shield oath is not a 2x or even 1.5x multiplier on enmity.

[Casper]

It's been demonstrated to be true. Shield oath is not a 2x or even 1.5x multiplier on enmity.

Do you have links to these studies ? I only remember the ones done by valk in beta 3 and have not seen any other since then, would love some hard facts on this. Thanks

[Terabyt3]

Do you have links to these studies ? I only remember the ones done by valk in beta 3 and have not seen any other since then, would love some hard facts on this. Thanks

i think Vlaks did an updated one and posted here a few weeks ago to show that he thinks shield oath is actuallly broken and the enmity multiplier doesn't work.

From what I briefly read he tested it using same race, same stats, same gear against someone not in shield oath and someone in sword oath. Both times the "not shield oath" pulled hate.

Search the tank role forums I think it was in there?!

Edit: Quick search pulled this but this wasn't the post i was referring to from Vlaks http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Enmity-Broken

Edit2: This is the one I was on about originally http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...th#post1320882

[Casper]

snip

Oh okay thanks, i saw these two threads when they popped, just thought some more thorough testing had been conducted as these thread just say basically "hey guys stuff seems to have change somehow and formulas are different. See ya !" ^^

[Viridiana]

Edit2: This is the one I was on about originally http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...th#post1320882

From the same blog, there's this:

At some point over last weekend it appears a ninja patch or something on the backend has been changed by SE normalizing Enmity.

Sword/Shield Oath Testing to be conducted this week.

[Faction]

Your entire premise is predicated upon the idea that the enmity generation increase from Defiance and Shield Oath is only enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt, which is not true. It may not be 2x like it used to be, but it is most definitely more than enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt. I know this because I've tanked while in Defiance and while outside of Defiance; I generate noticeably more enmity while in Defiance than while outside of it.

Um yeah sorry that's not enough. Some of us have actually tested this. You're gonna have to do better than anecdotes.

But then again this IS the person who tried to claim that Warrior cooldowns were as good as paladins due to "the superior uptime of bloodbath" so I don't expect much.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually a 2x multiplier still, because that would be a 36% increase in total enmity generation. A 75% increase in enmity generation is a 19.1% increase.

That's not how Defiance or Shield Oath ever worked. What they did is modify the enmity modifier of skills, meaning for example: Butcher's Block generated 10x damage as enmity instead of 5x. Any skill without an enmity modifier became 2x. This was 100% more enmity over not using defiance or shield oath, not "36%." You don't need an online calculator to figure that one out.

Assuming that defiance is currently is a flat percentage boost of 50% (it could be more or less, who knows? It's certainly not 2x, or even 1.5x, though), defiance and shield oath would be roughly an 11% enmity boost over not using defiance or shield oath - potentially less for Warriors due to how maim interacts with defiance. My anecdotal testing using the ingame enmity bars as indicators has shown defiance and no-defiance to be almost entirely equal to the naked eye. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that perhaps the bar has breaking points that don't communicate such a small boost very well, or perhaps the percentage mod is actually lower. Either way, anecdotes are anecdotes and yours don't mean any more than mine.

Even being anecdotal, if you had played beta you'd see a night and day difference between phase 3 and now.

[Leiron]

But then again this IS the person who tried to claim that Warrior cooldowns were as good as paladins due to "the superior uptime of bloodbath" so I don't expect much.

Are you sure you are remembering the right person?