WAR and Wrath: Important Mechanics Discussed.

[Terabyt3]

Yeah your defensive cd's are off the GCD so should not impact your DPS output. Comparing RoH combo to BB is not gonna be equal anyway due to the potency difference on the last hit of the combo. You need to forget about the cd popping (as that has no impact on dps output) and take into account the optimal roations. test a few out and see what happens. Test dummies are an accurate measure of DPS output.

You gotta remember CoS & Fracture on the PLD too. Whereas a WAR will be popping HS>Maim>Eye every third combo along with fracture.

IIRC isn't CoS OFF the GCD too? Not @50 with PLD yet but I remember someone saying.

A PLD really won't be popping more than one CD at a time whereas I've found with WAR stuff works best in pairs. Berserk and Bloodbath for example. Or Foresight (stupidly dissapointing CD should be 20% dmg) and Featherfoot.

Rotations maybe (things off the GCD in green so dont affect the GCD for DPS output)
For WAR I'd assume the optimal rotation to be something along the lines of:

Heavy Swing>Vengeance>Maim>Storm's Eye
Heavy Swing>Internal Release>Skull Sunder>Butchers Block>Inner beast>Infuriate
Heavy Swing>Unleashed>Skull Sunder>Berserk>Butcher;s Block>Fracture
Heavy Swing>Maim>Storm's Eye>Inner Beast

That would probably give you the best DPS if that was what you were focussing on saving your defensive abilities to weave inbetween the GCD empty spaces in there.

For PLD (Don't have that much Experience with it so this can probably be optimized:

Spirits Within>CoS>Fast Blade>FoF>Savage Blade>RoH>Fracture
Fast Blade>Savage Blade>RoH
Fast Blade>SavageBlade>RoH>Fracture>CoS>Spirits Within

[Kunkka]

....

I am almost never able to spam halone combo in a DPS situation on my PLD. It pulls to much agro. Heck, sword oath riot blade combo alone with FoF almost pulls agro off the other tank but itself.

This is my WAR rotation for DPS checks. I have yet to see a better one. It assumes you are tanking or have a tank with sufficient aggro.
Build at least 4 stacks of wrath before the dps check phase and have the maim buff up.
Fracture(Phases are usually 1 minute long so using it right away lets you get two full ones in) -> Heavy Swing -> Maim -(Unleash -> berserk) -> Storm's eye -(Internal Release -> Vengeance) -> Butcher block combo -> IB -> Infuriate -> IB -> BB combo for burst or SE combo for more damage later. With a little skillspeed and good execution, your last skill lands as the berserk buff ends leaving you effectively pacified for only 2.5 seconds. Fracture after this and do your normal thing.

[Kitru]

I am almost never able to spam halone combo in a DPS situation on my PLD. It pulls to much agro. Heck, sword oath riot blade combo alone with FoF almost pulls agro off the other tank but itself.

A competent tank will be able to keep enmity off of an equally or marginally better geared offtank. The problem is that there are a *lot* of incompetent tanks out there. PLD need only spam their Halone combo and use Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn along with Fight or Flight. WARs should use the BB>BB>SE rotation and learn to use Internal Release + Berserk whenever it's feasible.

I've never had an enmity problem as a PLD or a WAR as long as the off tank wasn't using their tank stance as well, even when they're doing their highest damage combos. When I off tank, however, I often have to reign myself in because the other tank doesn't know how to generate enmity effectively (I've met so many WARs that just spam BB without ever weaving in SE). The enmity multiplier for the tank stance may not be 2x, but it's definitely more than enough to overcome the additional enmity-by-damage of Sword Oath/non-Defiance.

[Hachiko]

A competent tank will be able to keep enmity off of an equally or marginally better geared offtank. The problem is that there are a *lot* of incompetent tanks out there. PLD need only spam their Halone combo and use Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn along with Fight or Flight. WARs should use the BB>BB>SE rotation and learn to use Internal Release + Berserk whenever it's feasible.

This is absolutely not true. A PLD in Sword Oath spamming Rage of Halone combo will ALWAYS pull off of any tank in the game assuming relatively equal gear. It is the highest enmity generation per second in the game. As a WAR there is no way you could hold aggro off of a paladin in sword oath spamming RoH.

In fact, this is the only reason PLD Dps isn't very viable as an off-tank: they can't do it without pulling aggro.

[Kitru]

This is absolutely not true. A PLD in Sword Oath spamming Rage of Halone combo will ALWAYS pull off of any tank in the game assuming relatively equal gear. It is the highest enmity generation per second in the game. As a WAR there is no way you could hold aggro off of a paladin in sword oath spamming RoH.

In fact, this is the only reason PLD Dps isn't very viable as an off-tank: they can't do it without pulling aggro.

Your entire premise is predicated upon the idea that the enmity generation increase from Defiance and Shield Oath is only enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt, which is not true. It may not be 2x like it used to be, but it is most definitely more than enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt. I know this because I've tanked while in Defiance and while outside of Defiance; I generate noticeably more enmity while in Defiance than while outside of it.

Sword Oath equates to, roughly, a 17.5% increase in total DPS without it active. If Shield Oath provides a 50% increase in enmity generation, it would equate to generating 20% more enmity than capable while outside of it. And that's a conservative estimate, honestly, because the enmity generation increase that I've seen is definitely more than a 2.12% increase. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually a 2x multiplier still, because that would be a 36% increase in total enmity generation. A 75% increase in enmity generation is a 19.1% increase.

I can tell you that even a PLD spamming Halone can't pull off of me while I'm playing a WAR or PLD, and I've seen them try. If the tank actually knows how to maximize their enmity generation rather than just doing barely enough, like spamming BB or not using CoS/SW, a tank playing DPS isn't going to be able to pull off of them. A bad tank is going to get a dps PLD ripping off of them insanely easily.

[Hachiko]

Your entire premise is predicated upon the idea that the enmity generation increase from Defiance and Shield Oath is only enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt, which is not true.

It's been demonstrated to be true. Shield oath is not a 2x or even 1.5x multiplier on enmity.

[Casper]

It's been demonstrated to be true. Shield oath is not a 2x or even 1.5x multiplier on enmity.

Do you have links to these studies ? I only remember the ones done by valk in beta 3 and have not seen any other since then, would love some hard facts on this. Thanks

[Faction]

Your entire premise is predicated upon the idea that the enmity generation increase from Defiance and Shield Oath is only enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt, which is not true. It may not be 2x like it used to be, but it is most definitely more than enough to offset the reduction in damage dealt. I know this because I've tanked while in Defiance and while outside of Defiance; I generate noticeably more enmity while in Defiance than while outside of it.

Um yeah sorry that's not enough. Some of us have actually tested this. You're gonna have to do better than anecdotes.

But then again this IS the person who tried to claim that Warrior cooldowns were as good as paladins due to "the superior uptime of bloodbath" so I don't expect much.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually a 2x multiplier still, because that would be a 36% increase in total enmity generation. A 75% increase in enmity generation is a 19.1% increase.

That's not how Defiance or Shield Oath ever worked. What they did is modify the enmity modifier of skills, meaning for example: Butcher's Block generated 10x damage as enmity instead of 5x. Any skill without an enmity modifier became 2x. This was 100% more enmity over not using defiance or shield oath, not "36%." You don't need an online calculator to figure that one out.

Assuming that defiance is currently is a flat percentage boost of 50% (it could be more or less, who knows? It's certainly not 2x, or even 1.5x, though), defiance and shield oath would be roughly an 11% enmity boost over not using defiance or shield oath - potentially less for Warriors due to how maim interacts with defiance. My anecdotal testing using the ingame enmity bars as indicators has shown defiance and no-defiance to be almost entirely equal to the naked eye. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that perhaps the bar has breaking points that don't communicate such a small boost very well, or perhaps the percentage mod is actually lower. Either way, anecdotes are anecdotes and yours don't mean any more than mine.

Even being anecdotal, if you had played beta you'd see a night and day difference between phase 3 and now.

[Leiron]

But then again this IS the person who tried to claim that Warrior cooldowns were as good as paladins due to "the superior uptime of bloodbath" so I don't expect much.

Are you sure you are remembering the right person?

[Kitru]

Um yeah sorry that's not enough. Some of us have actually tested this. You're gonna have to do better than anecdotes.

The only tests I've seen (which Terabyte references) did not actually arrive at any real conclusion about the relative threat performance of Shield Oath to Sword Oath because they had issues with race playing some kind of factor wherein, with the same stats, whether they had Shield Oath or Sword Oath up, one of them continually pulled enmity. That's not evidence of superior enmity generation of one stance or the other. That's evidence of race playing some factor.

And I have actually tested this, though I'll admit that it wasn't a rigorously controlled test. I've had an AK group that I run with regularly. I've run the pack after the Demon Wall with and without Defiance up, using the same enmity generation rotation. When I've got Defiance up, they never even get close to my enmity generation; when I don't, the cushion I generate is *much* smaller (the difference is between the DPS/healer having a tiny sliver and one-quarter of comparative enmity).

That's not how Defiance or Shield Oath ever worked.

You don't understand math. Let me explain since you're having problems. Sword Oath represents a ~17.5% increase in total damage (it's actually closer to a 3-4% increase in total enmity generation because the high enmity of the Halone spam heavily dilutes the additional damage that Sword Oath provides; I didn't account for this when I did the math originally, however). Shield other represents dealing 80% of your previous damage. This means that you're comparing 117.5% of total damage to 80% of total damage. With a 2x multiplier, you're comparing 117.5% to 160%, which would have Shield Oath maintaining a 36% comparative advantage in enmity over Sword Oath. With a 1.75x multiplier, you're comparing 117.5% to 140%, which is a 19% comparative advantage.

You don't need an online calculator to figure that one out.

Except that you actually do, apparently. The math isn't that hard; you just have to actually understand it first (which you've never really shown a particular predilection towards).

Even being anecdotal, if you had played beta you'd see a night and day difference between phase 3 and now.

And I'm not claiming that there isn't. From everything I've heard, the enmity metagame in p3 was a complete joke because it was utterly pointless. The devs reduced the enmity multipliers of the tank stances to ensure that it wasn't a joke (which I support; a challenging enmity metagame is something that I actually enjoy) but that's a far cry from completely stripping them. Anyone who hits 30 on MRD, gets Defiance, and suddenly has an easier time maintaining enmity can tell you that Defiance provides more than it takes away. They may not be able to say exactly how much since it's not the difference between night and day, but it is present and tangible.

It doesn't take much for the tank stances to overcome the DPS-modes of their respective classes. The only way that they *wouldn't* is if the enmity modifier is both unequal for the both of them and only large enough to offset the damage reduction (so WAR would get a 33% increase in enmity whereas PLD would get a 25% increase). Even if it were only a 50% increase in enmity generation on both tank stances, you'd *still* see an advantage in total enmity generation.

As I've said, the only way that a tank-DPS in equivalent gear is ripping enmity off of a tank in tank stance is if the tank doesn't know how to maximize their enmity generation (which, as I've said numerous times, most tanks have no idea how to because they're not having to compete with another high enmity generator on a regular basis). Play against another tank that actually knows what they're doing and you won't see any issues. Play against another tank that doesn't and you'll see exactly what you describe.