WAR and Wrath: Important Mechanics Discussed.

[Terabyt3]

The Fracture adds up to roughly the same DPS as a Butcher's Block Combo..

No, just butchers block at the end of a combo. Not the whole thing.

[RapBreon]

lol Not good enough! You have to have equal gear... In Coil! lol It's just unfair that somehow you have fairy numbers and your argument is the accepted one. Pacification is overwritten because I use Berserked Fraction DoT before I'm pacified.

Erm you still can't use globals (unless you're bugging it somehow). Dots would still tick even if you weren't pacified, it still amounts to a DPS loss for 5 seconds. I also use fracture at the end of Berserk, but I'd still do more damage if I did that + didn't get pacified. The pacification over a long fight, I wager makes up for the 1.666% more damage Berserk grants over FoF.

Also the numbers you posted weren't from coil. Hence me ALSO mentioning my Anantaboga numbers. Your numbers are equally airy fairy man. Also the most appropriate way to test a DPS gap is on a target dummy btw.

@Terabyt3; Berserk over the course of its duration definitely grants more than 15% damage. Over a period of a minute however grants roughly 15% damage.

[HiirNoivl]

Also the most appropriate way to test a DPS gap is on a target dummy btw.

I prefer not to use Target Dummies. But people insist that I do. First of all, I want to see the damage in real play situations because those are the situations that matter. Anantaboga is just as good as a test dummy due to the fact that you never have to move. You're just wailing away at him the whole time.

Test Dummies don't hit you, so you never have to use any Defense cool downs. If I'm playing PLD in the real-play situations, my DPS is going to drop because I have to use defensive cooldowns. You're not going to be using Defensive cooldowns on a Test Dummy. That's why Test Dummy's inaccurately inflate PLD DPS numbers.

[RapBreon]

I prefer not to use Target Dummies. But people insist that I do. First of all, I want to see the damage in real play situations because those are the situations that matter. Anantaboga is just as good as a test dummy due to the fact that you never have to move. You're just wailing away at him the whole time.

Test Dummies don't hit you, so you never have to use any Defense cool downs. If I'm playing PLD in the real-play situations, my DPS is going to drop because I have to use defensive cooldowns. You're not going to be using Defensive cooldowns on a Test Dummy. That's why Test Dummy's inaccurately inflate PLD DPS numbers.

Jesus, defensive cool-downs are off the GCD, you weave them in-between your attacks. Zero impact. Unless you're bad and get animation locked on a target dummy.

In say a Bard vs. BLM comparison I would agree fights would be better due to the way moving impacts their DPS. But tanks always just sit there and whack. Dummies are fine.

[HiirNoivl]

It is not zero impact.

If I'm just standing there using my RoH combo and not doing anything else, I'll do somewhere around 115-125 on PLD. But if I just set there using the Butcher's Block combo and nothing else on the dummy I'll do somwhere between 120-130. This is just on the dummies. But my DPS falls on Anantaboga on PLD, where it rises on Anantaboga on WAR. why? Because I'm using Defensive cooldowns on PLD which doesn't add to my DPS, and on WAR all my cooldowns except for maybe 2 add to my DPS.

EDIT: It doesn't feel hard to me. Just different. I've played BCoB with both PLD and WAR. There's no carrying in that place. Everyone needs to do their job and do it well for the run to be smooth.

I think the "difficulty" is being able to adapt to both the needs of WAR and PLD as they are different. PLD needs curing after being struck, WAR needs curing before (he should be mitigating after). There may be some other issues on the healer side of things. If you have a good team, you should be able to complete, no matter what the party composition is.

Are you like using multiple cool-downs at once? If so then you'd clip into your GCD's, but that is just poor play.

Edit: Circle of Scorn and Spirits within are off the GCD and should be used in a DPS rotation. RoH combo vs. Butchers combo is unfair as War has one very low dmg move off the GCD but is generates almost zero damage. A large portion of Pally damage stems from those non-GCD linked moves.

It could drop for numerous reasons (you testing in Sworth Oath and being Shield Oath for Anan for one). Your party make-up would have to be entirely equal so buffs didn't alter the results, etc. Also your explanation doesn't make any sense in relation to your DPS going up as a Warrior. If you were right, Warrior wouldn't move while Paladin would go down.

It's not unfair. As a PLD, RoH combo is your main move, and as a WAR, Butcher's Block is your main move. In a real play situation, I have Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within on cooldown constantly for their hate generation properties. It doesn't add up to that much at all.

If I drop Shield Oath for PLD then I would also have to drop Defiance for WAR and then the disparity becomes even greater.

All things being equal. PLD was not built for DPS, WAR is. IF you don't have significantly more DPS than PLD as a WAR then something needs to change. (I have a very hard time Off Tanking because of my DPS centric gameplay. It's near impossible for me to single target offtank with a paladin MT because I am guaranteed to pull hate in 5 secs)

EDIT: Sorry I'm stuck editing because I'm out of Posts. Because I'm using Crit Buffs on my Storm's Eye Combo, it raises the DPS there too.

I'm not saying that you haven't seen WARs that don't do that much more DPS than PLD, I'm saying that you can create the conditions where it does.

And that's what's holding back folks from using WAR. Right now, many WARs do not create those conditions for huge damage spikes. Someone even criticized me for creating those conditions, (wearing optimal gear and Crit Rate buffing etc) But to be honest, I think this is the way it's supposed to be.

IF SE goes on to create a way for me to mitigate damage like PLD and doesn't somehow keep me from creating conditions where I have a 30% crit Rate and over 180 DPS Then you're going to see WAR become vastly over powered. I'm actually against Buffing WAR any more because if they do I'm going to steamroll over content.

WAR has all these breaks and chains on it to keep this from happening. This makes it have a bit more of a learning curve than PLD. But it doesn't make it less than PLD.

Jee whiz. Dude, a Warrior benefits more from that test, because their abilities hit harder, Paladins compensate for their weaker individual GCD moves by having some that aren't bound to it. You are automatically skewing your tests by showing your inability to milk out as much DPS as possible. Your selectiveness reinforces your own point, no wonder you're convinced Warriors are somehow 'built' for DPS, which would then make them shitty tanks right? Warriors do more DPS I agree, but not by a massive margin.

I have to go, I'm sure someone will fill my shoes. You also failed address the glaring hole in your theory about Anantaboga increasing your Warriors DPS.

Edit: Btw, both classes equally benefit damage wise from increased offensive stats. Warrior's do gain more survivability from offence, but this doesn't impact DPS. (done for real now).

Actually only Butcher's Block hits a little harder. The key is in the other abilities. They're not terrible tanks. I mean you're attacking my point over the same things as the others. But that's why I test in real-play situations.

Because it's impossible to skew results in real play. If you play the content correctly, WAR will always have more DPS than PLD. And if you play WAR correctly and gear it right that difference becomes more and more glaring.

Being Built for DPS is how WAR survives. It's how I survive in Coil, being able to reliably hit over 2k Inner Beast is how I survive.

[javid]

People are not satisfied with their own fun...they want your fun too. If they don't like...you're not allowed to like.

Pld make end game easier in comparison to warrior. That is when mitigation is keep to the difficult content. So???? Some ppl prefer it the harder way......if you don't prefer it the harder way....it...is......okay.....don't play with those harder perfering ppl....we actually DON'T have to all get along a play together.... party only hold 8 players....everyone can find someone that will play with the way the person want.... if youve not found it.... re que re form party.. its all ok. And just a fun game. Chill

[RapBreon]

It is not zero impact.

If I'm just standing there using my RoH combo and not doing anything else, I'll do somewhere around 115-125 on PLD. But if I just set there using the Butcher's Block combo and nothing else on the dummy I'll do somwhere between 120-130. This is just on the dummies. But my DPS falls on Anantaboga on PLD, where it rises on Anantaboga on WAR. why? Because I'm using Defensive cooldowns on PLD which doesn't add to my DPS, and on WAR all my cooldowns except for maybe 2 add to my DPS.

Are you like using multiple cool-downs at once? If so then you'd clip into your GCD's with animation locks, but that is just poor play.

Edit: Circle of Scorn and Spirits within are off the GCD and should be used in a DPS rotation. RoH combo vs. Butchers combo is unfair as War has one very low dmg move off the GCD but is generates almost zero damage. A large portion of Pally damage stems from those non-GCD linked moves.

It could drop for numerous reasons (you testing in Sworth Oath and being Shield Oath for Anan for one). Your party make-up would have to be entirely equal so buffs didn't alter the results, etc. Also your explanation doesn't make any sense in relation to your DPS going up as a Warrior. If you were right, Warrior wouldn't move while Paladin would go down.

It's not unfair. As a PLD, RoH combo is your main move, and as a WAR, Butcher's Block is your main move. In a real play situation, I have Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within on cooldown constantly for their hate generation properties. It doesn't add up to that much at all.

If I drop Shield Oath for PLD then I would also have to drop Defiance for WAR and then the disparity becomes even greater.

All things being equal. PLD was not built for DPS, WAR is. IF you don't have significantly more DPS than PLD as a WAR then something needs to change. (I have a very hard time Off Tanking because of my DPS centric gameplay. It's near impossible for me to single target offtank with a paladin MT because I am guaranteed to pull hate in 5 secs)

Jee whiz. Dude, a Warrior benefits more from that test, because their abilities hit harder, Paladins compensate for their weaker individual GCD moves by having some that aren't bound to it. You are automatically skewing your tests by showing your inability to milk out as much DPS as possible. Your selectiveness reinforces your own point, no wonder you're convinced Warriors are somehow 'built' for DPS, which would then make them shitty tanks right? Warriors do more DPS I agree, but not by a massive margin.

I have to go, I'm sure someone will fill my shoes. You also failed address the glaring hole in your theory about Anantaboga increasing your Warriors DPS.

Edit: Btw, both classes equally benefit damage wise from increased offensive stats. Warrior's do gain more survivability from offence, but this doesn't impact DPS. (done for real now).

[Terabyt3]

Yeah your defensive cd's are off the GCD so should not impact your DPS output. Comparing RoH combo to BB is not gonna be equal anyway due to the potency difference on the last hit of the combo. You need to forget about the cd popping (as that has no impact on dps output) and take into account the optimal roations. test a few out and see what happens. Test dummies are an accurate measure of DPS output.

You gotta remember CoS & Fracture on the PLD too. Whereas a WAR will be popping HS>Maim>Eye every third combo along with fracture.

IIRC isn't CoS OFF the GCD too? Not @50 with PLD yet but I remember someone saying.

A PLD really won't be popping more than one CD at a time whereas I've found with WAR stuff works best in pairs. Berserk and Bloodbath for example. Or Foresight (stupidly dissapointing CD should be 20% dmg) and Featherfoot.

Rotations maybe (things off the GCD in green so dont affect the GCD for DPS output)
For WAR I'd assume the optimal rotation to be something along the lines of:

Heavy Swing>Vengeance>Maim>Storm's Eye
Heavy Swing>Internal Release>Skull Sunder>Butchers Block>Inner beast>Infuriate
Heavy Swing>Unleashed>Skull Sunder>Berserk>Butcher;s Block>Fracture
Heavy Swing>Maim>Storm's Eye>Inner Beast

That would probably give you the best DPS if that was what you were focussing on saving your defensive abilities to weave inbetween the GCD empty spaces in there.

For PLD (Don't have that much Experience with it so this can probably be optimized:

Spirits Within>CoS>Fast Blade>FoF>Savage Blade>RoH>Fracture
Fast Blade>Savage Blade>RoH
Fast Blade>SavageBlade>RoH>Fracture>CoS>Spirits Within

[Kunkka]

....

I am almost never able to spam halone combo in a DPS situation on my PLD. It pulls to much agro. Heck, sword oath riot blade combo alone with FoF almost pulls agro off the other tank but itself.

This is my WAR rotation for DPS checks. I have yet to see a better one. It assumes you are tanking or have a tank with sufficient aggro.
Build at least 4 stacks of wrath before the dps check phase and have the maim buff up.
Fracture(Phases are usually 1 minute long so using it right away lets you get two full ones in) -> Heavy Swing -> Maim -(Unleash -> berserk) -> Storm's eye -(Internal Release -> Vengeance) -> Butcher block combo -> IB -> Infuriate -> IB -> BB combo for burst or SE combo for more damage later. With a little skillspeed and good execution, your last skill lands as the berserk buff ends leaving you effectively pacified for only 2.5 seconds. Fracture after this and do your normal thing.

[Kitru]

I am almost never able to spam halone combo in a DPS situation on my PLD. It pulls to much agro. Heck, sword oath riot blade combo alone with FoF almost pulls agro off the other tank but itself.

A competent tank will be able to keep enmity off of an equally or marginally better geared offtank. The problem is that there are a *lot* of incompetent tanks out there. PLD need only spam their Halone combo and use Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn along with Fight or Flight. WARs should use the BB>BB>SE rotation and learn to use Internal Release + Berserk whenever it's feasible.

I've never had an enmity problem as a PLD or a WAR as long as the off tank wasn't using their tank stance as well, even when they're doing their highest damage combos. When I off tank, however, I often have to reign myself in because the other tank doesn't know how to generate enmity effectively (I've met so many WARs that just spam BB without ever weaving in SE). The enmity multiplier for the tank stance may not be 2x, but it's definitely more than enough to overcome the additional enmity-by-damage of Sword Oath/non-Defiance.