Toxic endgame community...

[Ceol]

Sorry, but you could say the same thing about people finding their own pre-made to run a "Story Mode" of a dungeon. The DF isn't just for people who run dungeons for the first time...

The DF is the default way that people find group members at any stage in their character's existence — whether they're super l33t tanks who have off work that day and no one in their FC is on, or they're brand new DDs who just hit 50 and don't even have an FC. That's why it's unfair to expect a random newbie to skip cutscenes and ruin their own story experience just because you (not you specifically, but you in a general sense) don't want to take an extra 8 minutes.

[Kaedan94]

The DF is the default way that people find group members at any stage in their character's existence — whether they're super l33t tanks who have off work that day and no one in their FC is on, or they're brand new DDs who just hit 50 and don't even have an FC. That's why it's unfair to expect a random newbie to skip cutscenes and ruin their own story experience just because you (not you specifically, but you in a general sense) don't want to take an extra 8 minutes.

But they can watch the cutscenes in their room. And do you honestly believe one person inconveniencing seven people is FAIR?

If I notice someone new watching CSs in CM, I politely ask them to skip them and watch them in their inn room later. If they ignore me or say no, I give them fair warning that we're going to continue without them. As you say, the DF is for everyone, not just for those doing it the first time. It's not fair to the other 7 people if they have to wait.

I don't honestly mind if they watch the cutscenes... that's their right. But then they'll have to put up with the consequence of potentially being locked out of a boss. There's nothing toxic about my behavior at all. I'm always very polite about it, and most people I've run with have been as well.

[Cigaran]

But they can watch the cutscenes in their room. And do you honestly believe one person inconveniencing seven people is FAIR?

If I notice someone new watching CSs in CM, I politely ask them to skip them and watch them in their inn room later. If they ignore me or say no, I give them fair warning that we're going to continue without them. As you say, the DF is for everyone, not just for those doing it the first time. It's not fair to the other 7 people if they have to wait.

I don't honestly mind if they watch the cutscenes... that's their right. But then they'll have to put up with the consequence of potentially being locked out of a boss. There's nothing toxic about my behavior at all. I'm always very polite about it, and most people I've run with have been as well.

You don't see this as toxic? Sorry but if someone is in there for their first time and you pull that bullshit, I'd go out of my way to make sure your experience is as unenjoyable as possible.

[Kaedan94]

You don't see this as toxic? Sorry but if someone is in there for their first time and you pull that bullshit, I'd go out of my way to make sure your experience is as unenjoyable as possible.

Nope, not toxic at all. Do you know what people mean by toxic community? It means an insulting, offensive, trolling community like League of Legends. While I won't deny that there are people like that who run CM, I haven't seen it often and I most certainly do not participate in toxic behavior.

You, on the other hand, purposefully going out of your way to piss people off, is toxic.

If people want everyone to be on-ball about the goal (speed running, story viewing, etc), then pre-make the group. If you rely on random DF, understand that people have different objectives in mind. Who's going to be the adult and show some compromise?

Your suggestion just as easily applies to new players wanting to run it. They can form their own pre-made groups specifically to go slowly through it and watch all cutscenes. And from a community/societal standpoint, it makes much more sense for them to the be the ones to make their own groups, since first time runners are by far the minority.

But speaking of compromise, that's exactly what I do. I compromise. You want to watch the cutscenes, which will inconvenience the other seven of us. So as a compromise, I ask you to skip the cutscenes for now, since you can watch them in your room later. That way you can still participate in all fights. However, I offer another compromise that if you don't want to skip cutscenes: you can watch them, but you will run the risk of getting locked out of a boss.

You claim that the seven others being inconvenienced aren't losing anything, but you're wrong. They're losing time... which is the most precious resource in an MMO. You really shouldn't speak of being an adult when you're not even capable of looking at both sides.

Actually, you can't just watch them in the Inn... only the first one. The rest are not in the Inn.

Yes, they are. All of them are in the inn. You just have to check the different categories.

[Welsper59]

Your suggestion just as easily applies to new players wanting to run it. They can form their own pre-made groups specifically to go slowly through it and watch all cutscenes. And from a community/societal standpoint, it makes much more sense for them to the be the ones to make their own groups, since first time runners are by far the minority.

But speaking of compromise, that's exactly what I do. I compromise. You want to watch the cutscenes, which will inconvenience the other seven of us. So as a compromise, I ask you to skip the cutscenes for now, since you can watch them in your room later. That way you can still participate in all fights. However, I offer another compromise that if you don't want to skip cutscenes: you can watch them, but you will run the risk of getting locked out of a boss.

You claim that the seven others being inconvenienced aren't losing anything, but you're wrong. They're losing time... which is the most precious resource in an MMO. You really shouldn't speak of being an adult when you're not even capable of looking at both sides.

... I believe I addressed all of the points you made in the rest of my post you quoted. Again, a few minutes for ANYONE is not the end of the world. And if it is, why are you spending the time on an uncertainty (such as playing a video game...) if every second is a life or death matter? The compromise I referred to was the fact that the non-story folks still get it done.

Basically, the folks doing it for speed get the short end of the stick, in that it takes a few minutes longer to do something. Fair? Of course not, but it's not a big deal to let the minority have some fun... it's a video game, not a job. You're not gonna be fired from your "job" of playing FFXIV if you take a little longer to do something. Compromise. Be a thoughtful adult where it applies. It's not harmful to give up some things once in a while (such as a few minutes).

Your idea of a compromise isn't much of one. It's basically a dictatorship. Compromise is a mutual understanding and acceptance. Your going through with something regardless of their reply is more along the lines of a threat that's sugar-coated. Don't paint yourself out to be some sort of martyr. You're not wrong to do it, but neither is the person who refuses to skip scenes. I think for your sake, it's important to understand that you're not compromising. You're only suggesting one, despite the intent to go through regardless of the other parties concerns

Once again, I covered pretty much your reply in the quote you referred to.

I think it's important that I should point out that I'm not saying that it doesn't get annoying or whatever after so many goes. I'm just saying that if you rely on the DF for randoms, it's going to be like that. Just keep in mind you're going to ruin someone elses experience if they're there for the story by rushing them. It doesn't matter that they can view it in the inn. MMOs are immersion based games. It kinda breaks the immersion when you're already done with the battles, then go back to see the story that lead up to it.

[Kiralai]

...first time runners are by far the minority.

If they are a small minority, they would have a more difficult time forming a pre-made group for their purposes than you (as a speed runner) would. CM was created as a storyline dungeon, so queuing for CM in the Duty Finder and expecting people to give up on the purpose it was intended for is unfair. Speed runners (and I include myself in this) have turned CM into a spam-fest for tomes. But being that WE'RE the ones bending it to our own purposes, it should be OUR burden to make the groups. First-timers only have one chance to have that first-time experience. And no, watching the CS in the inn does not compare. It will take you all of 10 minutes to put together a CM speed run group that will likely stick together for multiple runs. Strong-arming a Duty Finder group to do it our way makes us a lazy and "toxic" majority.

[Welsper59]

But they can watch the cutscenes in their room. And do you honestly believe one person inconveniencing seven people is FAIR?

If I notice someone new watching CSs in CM, I politely ask them to skip them and watch them in their inn room later. If they ignore me or say no, I give them fair warning that we're going to continue without them. As you say, the DF is for everyone, not just for those doing it the first time. It's not fair to the other 7 people if they have to wait.

I don't honestly mind if they watch the cutscenes... that's their right. But then they'll have to put up with the consequence of potentially being locked out of a boss. There's nothing toxic about my behavior at all. I'm always very polite about it, and most people I've run with have been as well.

Nothing must be fair. It comes down to an understanding. Some play games differently than you (not specifically, just generally speaking). Just because you're polite about something, doesn't mean that you're being fair about it. You're losing nothing by waiting, but gaining at least a sense that you're letting someone enjoy the game in a harmless way. Okay, well I guess you lose a few minutes of your life... I'm pretty sure we've lost more time yawning in our lives.

I do also realize that what I said can be used from the opposite perspective as well. It's a never ending cycle, which is why it's not a matter of being "fair", it's a matter of understanding.

If people want everyone to be on-ball about the goal (speed running, story viewing, etc), then pre-make the group. If you rely on random DF, understand that people have different objectives in mind. Who's going to be the adult and show some compromise? We're in a sea of people of varying ages, but so few mature adults among them.