Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

[Kitru]

Lhun's a great guy, but he often makes big mistakes in his analysis and most of us disagree with him. Just because someone makes tldr posts doesn't mean he's got it nailed down.

Big mistakes? I've yet to see him able to grasp even the most basic math. There's a difference between "mistakes" and "complete and utter ignorance".

[NovaLevossida]

Seriously, Don't be hostile on all PLDs that you see posting in WAR threads.

Actually, 90% or so of the posts that say warriors are fine are from paladins who haven't taken WAR up to 50. I don't mean to sound condescending, but "WAR is fine!" doesn't help when it's not true and also coming from PLDs, the tank class which is more than fine. It's really irritating to see so many threads about what the job is lacking and to constantly see PLDs come in and say the job is fine, presumably from lack of experience / knowledge or outright spite.

[Rhained]

Im not 100% sure as i havnt played warrior but it feels like they scale better from gear than paladin. Could be wrong though, but that does explain if devs excelled with them when tower was in (they prob also tested with different gear levels).

[SwordCoheir]

It is not moot point at all

It pretty much is moot though, you can compare WAR/PLD gear to any DD and it's comparable in stats, the secondary stats might be a little different but they're tailored a bit more to that jobs sepecific function. Even the Sword and Shields (stat wise) were divided to 2:1 ratio to keep PLD's from being ahead of WAR's and other jobs statistically. The only distinctive advantage PLD has over WAR or any DD gear wise is just having the secondary ability to block with the shield.

[SwordCoheir]

You've seen 67 pages of people going into the math

Thing about the math is all the data is relative to your input, and most of the time it doesn't neccessairly account for experience or rotations. I've heard alot of interesting ideas that I've never seen anyone else use that could be invaluable, but I still hear tons of people say silly stuff like you have to eat some Slipstreams on Garuda yet you can dodge every single one of them without consequence if you know what your doing.

For example, I have a buddy in my FC who was wondering how come I was doing more damage though we were both wearing the same gear on MNK yet he has a +1 Relic. It came down to rotations, I was popping Blood for Blood/Internal release every chance I got, and using Perfect Balance > Snap Punch x3 to build up Greased Lightning's effect when it was down, and throwing out my Howling Fists only with B4B and IR up usually critting multiple mobs for 500+.

[Derza]

I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

Huh you link us to a post by a warrior that is in full AF gear and white accessories and a green weapon - and tell us he has the class mastered? That was a joke right?

Big mistakes? I've yet to see him able to grasp even the most basic math. There's a difference between "mistakes" and "complete and utter ignorance".

^ couldn't agree more.

[HiirNoivl]

Thing about the math is all the data is relative to your input, and most of the time it doesn't neccessairly account for experience or rotations. I've heard alot of interesting ideas that I've never seen anyone else use that could be invaluable, but I still hear tons of people say silly stuff like you have to eat some Slipstreams on Garuda yet you can dodge every single one of them without consequence if you know what your doing.

For example, I have a buddy in my FC who was wondering how come I was doing more damage though we were both wearing the same gear on MNK yet he has a +1 Relic. It came down to rotations, I was popping Blood for Blood/Internal release every chance I got, and using Perfect Balance > Snap Punch x3 to build up Greased Lightning's effect when it was down, and throwing out my Howling Fists only with B4B and IR up usually critting multiple mobs for 500+.

I liked your post, Sword.

That's what I've been noticing too. I called for people to post their builds and parses but all I ever get out of the naysayers are hypothetical reasons for why WAR is not as good as PLD/is not viable for endgame. They don't post parses, they don't post builds or stat allocations, they don't post rotations and they don't post videos. I wonder if some of them actually play WAR to be honest.

Now in my experience I've tried some suggestions that they've made and some of what they've posted has turned out to be true. In most cases, holding Wrath V is better than using Inner Beast unless your Inner Beast is pumped really high. I've learned that based on the theorycrafting, Bloodbath needs to be more significant than just using it on its own, etc.

So the theorycrafting isn't ALL wrong. However, when I see people's issues that they have with WAR and saying that it's not viable at all or that it's broken, I find that there are ways in-Game to remedy the "problems with WAR". For example, finding ways to increase your damage dealt. Using abilities in combination to maximize their effectiveness. Learn to work the mechanics of the fight to your advantage.

I still envy PLDs their debuffs... man I wish I could stun every GCD... Or blind my enemies. But I just have to deal with that my own way.

My experience and my rotations have overcome WARs supposed limitations thus far. And while I'm still looking forward to Turns 3 and 4, I'm feeling really good about WARs viability at endgame currently.

EDIT: Derza, You've posted nothing. Yes, I did show DPS as high as 168 on stationary targets because people were saying that WAR doesn't DPS more than PLD. I also posted parses to show that WAR crit Rate surpasses what it should be in theory. I've posted Videos so you can see what I'm doing and all people say was "Coil Please" and they didn't pay attention to what I was doing, or how well it was working (I use much of the same methods on Garuda as I do on Caduceus except the cooldowns are more spread out.)

I'm showing you plenty but you close your eyes and just keep repeating the same theoretical gibberish. People go with PLD cause they don't know any better, and they're fool into believing that people can play the game as well as they theorycraft. Which is becoming more and more obvious that theory is just that. Sometimes practice belies the theory.

But keep clinging to your charts and numbers. We could have cleared Turn 2 yesterday, but it was midnight and I was gonna start derping any minute.

[Derza]

I liked your post, Sword.

That's what I've been noticing too. I called for people to post their builds and parses but all I ever get out of the naysayers are hypothetical reasons for why WAR is not as good as PLD/is not viable for endgame. They don't post parses, they don't post builds or stat allocations, they don't post rotations and they don't post videos. I wonder if some of them actually play WAR to be honest.

Now in my experience I've tried some suggestions that they've made and some of what they've posted has turned out to be true. In most cases, holding Wrath V is better than using Inner Beast unless your Inner Beast is pumped really high. I've learned that based on the theorycrafting, Bloodbath needs to be more significant than just using it on its own, etc.

So the theorycrafting isn't ALL wrong. However, when I see people's issues that they have with WAR and saying that it's not viable at all or that it's broken, I find that there are ways in-Game to remedy the "problems with WAR". For example, finding ways to increase your damage dealt. Using abilities in combination to maximize their effectiveness. Learn to work the mechanics of the fight to your advantage.

I still envy PLDs their debuffs... man I wish I could stun every GCD... Or blind my enemies. But I just have to deal with that my own way.

My experience and my rotations have overcome WARs supposed limitations thus far. And while I'm still looking forward to Turns 3 and 4, I'm feeling really good about WARs viability at endgame currently.

The thing i don't think you understand is... All the warriors CD's as well as IB used in perfect rotation is SOMETIMES enough in hard hitting encounters to overcome the difference in a paladin that uses no CD's and is just in shield oath. In any fight where a boss does about 400 dps (closer to 350 vs a paladin that uses any cooldowns) a warrior is going to require a shit ton more healing, Having a good rotation /optimized gear is only pushing you to the point of being as good as a no CD using paladin tanking.

And what has your parsing shown us? Do you get any tanking stats out of it? I think all you do is show dps and that somehow changes everything? I mean calculations have been done using a warrior tank doing 100 ish dps and hitting an average of 2k inner beast heals (way higher than the average really is I should add)... and that puts you at about where you would be equal with a paladin if incoming damage is ~ 400 dps... anything over that and the paladin is better - anything under and the warrior is better. The problem is if the dps is sub 400 dps - its easy content and both classes can do it with no problem, when it gets to 600+ incoming dps warriors have a hard time doing content and all the "mitigation" is being shifted to the healers - so people go with paladins.

[Thyrllan]

If warrior is under-performing as designed then why devs are not doing anything about it?

SE is testing CT and has CT gear to play with on Warrior. Warriors may scale better than PLD and be fine in CT/BC gear, they may not.

SE is also notorious for pretending there is no problems.

[Kaalan]

Tbh, we're weeks ahead of the "WAR isn't viable" I think. Most people complain that there's close to 0 reason to take a WAR over a PLD for most of the game, not that a WAR cannot tank.
The only thing a WAR bring over a PLD, is a little bit of extra damage. But it's not enough. We're like what, 50 DPS higher than an equally geared and played PLD ? At best. While it's nice, in a 8 man situation it's almost nothing.
Since we're so much squishier than a PLD and don't bring any party utility outside of enmity, a WAR should be able to perform close to 75% the DPS of a real DPS job when outside of defiance, and we're verry far from that.
As much as I love WAR, fact is, currently, outside of simple challenge or being nice to your buddy that always pick the "wrong" class (yup that's me), there's no point in bringing a WAR over a PLD for most of the content, and that needs to be issued.