How would you fix Warrior?

[wlakiz]

Easy.

1. Let WAR cross class with lancer instead of Monk.
2. Make Life Surge cross class-able
3. Critical hits from Inner Beast would restore 3 Wraths.

[Kitru]

The changes I recomended are meant to increase the viability of a war's self healing abilities, bringing them closer to a pld's damage mitigation.

Except that the issue isn't that WAR self-heals aren't large enough; it's that their self *do not scale properly*. Nothing you've recommended gets even *remotely* close to addressing this.

A lack of damage penalty increases bloodbath's usefulness as a self healer from normal attacks.

Except that, in order to increase Bloodbath's usefulness to be an appreciable self heal in the context of a non-solo environment, you need to either boost the damage or the self-healing so monumentally high that a WAR would be effectively unkillable while solo.

Decreasing the enmity healers receive from healing us is a seperate option for making the comparison between war and pld equivalent.

How does that do *anything* to address the disparity between WAR and PLD? WAR and PLD enmity is pretty much even, even from an AoE standpoint (WAR AoE enmity generation is handicapped by a monumentally high cost that prevents excessive use of Overpower whereas a PLD can Flash spam without any issues whatsoever). The math has been done *numerous* times. The only way that it could address the problem is if you somehow think that healers are limited by their enmity generation rather than by the things that *actually* limit them, like resource consumption and cast speed. A WAR requires 8.7% more healing than a PLD while generating *more* than enough enmity to keep threat on everything. Enmity is not the problem, which you seem to think it is. The actual amount of healing required over the long term is the problem.

Not all 5 of my ideas need to go together to work, they are individual ideas.

None of your ideas work *at all*. Did you not get that from my responses to each of them? They're *all* terrible and demonstrate a complete and utter lack of understanding of what is being discussed.

Increasing the damage still has WAR requiring a lot more healing than a PLD (while also causing there to be no penalty whatsoever to being in the tank stance, which is just borked as hell) and *still* doesn't have it scale properly, meaning that PLD is still the better tank because damage taken is what makes a tank, not damage dealt.

Tweaking enmity in any way does *nothing* whatsoever to actually address the problems with WAR tanking because enmity is *not* a limiting factor for *either* tank's survivability (I can only guess you don't grasp this because you're a terrible tank that hasn't even gotten to end game content and loses threat to every healer you run with because you have no idea how to generate and maintain enmity on multiple targets): enmity and survivability are disparate constructs that are *not* connected in any appreciable way.

As stated before, a buff to Bloodbath does nothing to actually make WARs better. To make it useful, you have to buff it so massively that WAR becomes unkillable in solo play (not to mention that you have to accomplish this in a way that only WARs benefit from it, since Bloodbath is an additional ability for PLDs; if you don't, you're buffing PLD nearly as much as you're buffing WAR).

Your change to Overpower simply demonstrates that you're completely ignorant of *so* many fundamental aspects of game balance. Hell, I'm not even sure how you think that Overpower, as it stands now, is somehow incapable of getting adds later on in a fight. The best I can figure is that you just have no clue whatsoever how to actually play and manage the enmity game in ARR. Most of your ideas are so disconnected from what is *actually* wrong with WAR that I seriously have to wonder if you've read *anything* on the subject before opening your mouth and let the sewage that spewed from the waste factory of your mind flow forth. Your ideas are completely and utterly idiotic and demonstrative of both inexperience as well as an utter incapability of actually approaching a situation from a logical and analytical viewpoint. You've got no idea what you're talking about in *any* way, shape, or form. The level of intelligence you've demonstrated is a reasonable indicator that your intelligence compares disfavorably with that of a piece of sedimentary stone (if you didn't get that, I'm calling you dumber than a rock).

[PessimiStick]

I have yet to see a single MMO that has actually stuck with a tank that uses differently scaling self-healing as a large portion of their mitigation without admitting they've simply abandoned all efforts at balancing classes. *Every single one* moves away from them because they *always* present overwhelming problems with balance that cannot be addressed. It is an interesting concept, but it is *just not possible* within the realms of a balanced game.

That's not entirely true. See: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49998

The real key, like you said, is that it has to scale off of *incoming* damage, and not be primarily tied to any stats possessed by the player.

[Garry]

Honeslty its not very complicated warrior wouldn't need too much. Really tacking a damage reduction buff to one of the warrior's skills would keep the active style up while bring things to a more even setting.

Examples:
Steel cyclone: 60 to 120 second 5-10% damage reduction buff. Make's wraith stack feel more expendible, however inner beast or wraith would need to be change so that IB and Unchained still feels worth using.

Storm path: remove pretend healing add ~21s(so it can be kept up every 3rd combo) again 5-10% damage reduction buff. (with berserk + maim + storm's eye + blood bath +vengeance+unchained puts you in such a great place threat wise that you can almost ignore threat for the rest of a so no reason to to really worry about threat, and damage reduction in aoe is already covered under the current game mechanixs)


That's pretty much all you need,. Maybe another protective cooldown might be nice.

[CygnusMajor]

The simplest buff while maintaining the design concept of WAR would be to allow Fight or Flight as cross class to MRD/WAR.

[Derza]

The simplest buff while maintaining the design concept of WAR would be to allow Fight or Flight as cross class to MRD/WAR.

How would that help with balance? It is impossible to balance warrior as it is - because they are based off of personal stats to get mitigation while paladins is based off of incoming damage... Sure if they leave it how it is they can balance it for ONE situation but out side of that warrior would be better in things easier than that one situation while paladins would be better in harder content - adding another damage buff that is based off of personal stats will only shift the threshold of when paladin becomes better - It will not balance the classes.

[Kitru]

That's not entirely true.

Actually, it is. When I said "differently scaling self-healing", I was referring to self healing mechanisms that contribute substantially to the class's mean mitigation and scales with anything except for incoming damage. The major points of that are "contribute substantially" and "anything except for incoming damage". Death Strike doesn't fit within that description (and hasn't since DKs were first introduced; they were changed to scale with incoming damage pretty quickly when the devs realized how borked they were).

I did a *lot* of math on the SWTOR forums and played/mathed Shadow tank intensively. Fully 25% of its total mitigation was due to self-healing, which has *always* been a problem as content progressed: they did amazing at early content (above and beyond what the other tanks could do) while diminishing quickly in value in higher end and larger group (i.e. 16m v. 8m content). Interestingly, the devs have stated that, in the next major patch, they are effectively removing all of their "passive" self healing because it simply wasn't a balanced construct.

I did it a lot in City of Heroes/Villains as well and, in that case, the devs just gave up trying to create a balanced game construct and just said "screw it".

In MMOs, devs either recognize that self-healing that doesn't scale based upon incoming damage is a patently *bad* idea or they recognize that balance just doesn't matter to the game itself. If balance matters, you *cannot* have self-healing act as a substantial factor in survivability while scaling with hp, damage, or whatever. I'm going to laugh my ass off when the SE devs finally recognize this.

[PessimiStick]

Misunderstood what you meant by "differently scaling self-healing" then, my fault. Completely agree with your post.

[CygnusMajor]

How would that help with balance? It is impossible to balance warrior as it is - because they are based off of personal stats to get mitigation while paladins is based off of incoming damage... Sure if they leave it how it is they can balance it for ONE situation but out side of that warrior would be better in things easier than that one situation while paladins would be better in harder content - adding another damage buff that is based off of personal stats will only shift the threshold of when paladin becomes better - It will not balance the classes.

I don't understand your statement. War was designed as a damage dealing tank with self heals but the damage it deals is too close to what Pld can do. Giving War Fight or Flight would give War an edge in damage and another buff to pop before Inner Beast without having to redesign its abilities.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Thrill of Battle: Reduce Cooldown to 30s
Improved Foresight: Reduces Cooldown to 60s
Improved Fracture: Also reduces damage delt by 3~5%
Improved Overpower: Reduces damage delt by 3~5%
Unchained: Reduce Cooldown to 60sec
Defiance: Increase hp by 30% Lower damage dealt by 20%
Wrath: Stacks increase parry rate by 3% per stack