FFXIV: ARR becoming TORtanic

[Vaen]

You'll probably get your wish, bleater.

I love how dramatic and evil that sounds xD Coupled with your ominous-looking character pic, it gave me the perfect impression of an Edea/Kuja-esque Final Fantasy villain.

So I'm a bleater, now? Is that because I defend a part of the game I enjoy or because some of my opinions differ from yours?

Anyway, you might be right about crafting and gathering not raking in tons of new players/non-MMO-playing FF fans. But that doesn't mean that stuff like good crafting, housing, etc. won't make SE money. These systems are what make real MMO/sandbox fans keep subscribing for months and years. FFXI mimicked Everquest *much* more than it resembled a real Final Fantasy game, but it made SE TONS of money because it had so many MMO fans that stuck with it for many years. The Final Fantasy aspect of this MMO can be used to draw more players in, but they don't have to make the game feel that similar to the single player FFs like you're basically implying.

The main story in this game could probably be a bit better, for sure, but within the limitations of the MMO genre it's pretty great. Not to mention the lore, aesthetic, and the environmental storytelling in FFXIV are amazing.

There are certainly tons of things that could be improved in FFXIV. But I think a lot of people are going to stick with this game because of all the good stuff they have now and all the stuff they're promising to implement in the near future.

[Chrysania]

I love how dramatic and evil that sounds xD Coupled with your ominous-looking character pic, it gave me the perfect impression of an Edea/Kuja-esque Final Fantasy villain.

So I'm a bleater, now? Is that because I defend a part of the game I enjoy or because some of my opinions differ from yours?

Anyway, you might be right about crafting and gathering not raking in tons of new players/non-MMO-playing FF fans. But that doesn't mean that stuff like good crafting, housing, etc. won't make SE money. These systems are what make real MMO/sandbox fans keep subscribing for months and years. FFXI mimicked Everquest *much* more than it resembled a real Final Fantasy game, but it made SE TONS of money because it had so many MMO fans that stuck with it for many years. The Final Fantasy aspect of this MMO can be used to draw more players in, but they don't have to make the game feel that similar to the single player FFs like you're basically implying.

The main story in this game could probably be a bit better, for sure, but within the limitations of the MMO genre it's pretty great. Not to mention the lore, aesthetic, and the environmental storytelling in FFXIV are amazing.

There are certainly tons of things that could be improved in FFXIV. But I think a lot of people are going to stick with this game because of all the good stuff they have now and all the stuff they're promising to implement in the near future.

And now you're on with something that isn't wishing quantities of players would quit! This, I can respond to meaningfully!

I'd love for ARR to succeed wildly. Let me say that in no uncertain terms. I'd love for it to be a Final Fantasy MMO, 'cause honestly...I'm a Final Fantasy fan. Along with umpty-four million others. The prooooblem at hand is not that you have opinions that differ from mine; takes all colors of the rainbow, after all; but there IS an opinion subset that, right now, is very toxic.

That is the 'Its amazing and wonderfully perfect in every way never change anything! Complainers should just...leave! NYEAH!' position. There are, in fact, some great things about ARR. You'll not find a single post of me kicking a wall about the music; the music's excellent. Beautiful scoring.

Won't find me complaining about the art style; its fantastic. Won't find me griping about gear or stats or even too much by way of classes and mechanics (other than the ungodly lag that makes me think I'm dodging crap when, on the server, I'm just kind've...not. Apparently.)

Won't find me even saying that crafting classes suck. You WILL find me saying that they're not my bag and that I kind've like gathering classes, but I'ma be brutally honest; there's nothing about either that would convince most players pondering a sub to stay. Why?

Because most players will come through the door in the first place because its got 'Final Fantasy' on it. Its not going to take anything but perhaps fumes worth of players from WoW or SWTOR. Its not, under any stretch of the imagination, telling a more persistently engaging and immersive story than WoW or SWTOR, or TSW.

I see that opening CGI and I am blown away. The music is tearjerking and seeing the last moments of Eorzea as it was, and the way Lousoix smiles as Bahamut's (I presume) megaflare breath descends?

I WANNA PLAY THAT GAME! GIMME! TAKE MAH FREAKING MONEY.

But we don't ...really get to play that game, do we. It almost feels like we might get to in the first 20 or so levels; almost! But then the same, brainless fed-exing and fetch-it and kill-all-the-rats stuff proliferates. Leves and fates don't offer anything but a tourniquet solution when the quests are just ...gone, and you need a level and a half before you can resume the main story.

And when I got to the end of that main story, I almost felt, for a fleeting handful of moments during the Ultima Weapon fight, like I was playing a Final Fantasy game.

And then I had to skip more cutscenes because my party was sobbing the whole run about 'noobs needing to watch this sh*t in the inn and not hold everyone back'.

Experience terminated.

So...thank you for the cogent reprise, at least. I'ma go play FF8 on my PS3 some more and wish Square still bothered making good games.

'Cause this just isn't a good game. Its an MMO alright, and there's this demented sort of...something akin to a twisted sort of pride that pervades the MMO gaming community, that MMO's don't have to be good games. They're not supposed to be good games. They're supposed to be grindfests that are painful to play because you're supposed to bleed, and suffer, and hate every step of it until you are hardcore, and then you are allowed to be proud and happy.

That seems the summated mentality. I don't ...have that mentality.

I want a good game. There are lots of good games to play. WoW is a shockingly and amazingly good GAME to play. Of all the MMO's currently going, WoW is one of the few I'd play single player. TSW, I -did- play solo. Right smack through the main story, and I loved every damn minute of it. Pretty dang good game there too.

SWTOR? Some of those class stories are pretty fun, though they suffer from some of the same disjointed schizophrenia that's plaging ARR's main story. You have to do way too much 'side' stuff between installments, and it gets really easy to wind up going 'Why do I care about this dumbface again? I remember what was happening, but not why I'm supposed to care' a lot in some of them. Not so much in others.

Now lets look over at DC Universe Online. If you like DC comics, its a rather good game. Still a gear treadmill MMO for its 'endgame', but a pretty good GAME up to that point.

And that, at least to me, is a very important thing. One simple question is, for me, of ultimate importance.

WOULD I PLAY THIS GAME IF IT WERE SINGLE PLAYER?

No. Not even when I modify the question's context reasonably to allow for MMO's just plain having a different business requirement. WoW? Yes. I would.

TSW? Absolutely. In fact, I wish TSW were just a multiplayer game and not an MMO. Common-quality MMO idiots that don't like thinking and are allergic to learning are tortured mercilessly in that game, and they torture the rest of us by their persistent presence.

ARR? No. I can honestly say that I wouldn't play this in its current state as a single player game; the game itself is...barely there. There's just not much there at all.

And another gear treadmill endgame? Yeah, I'm not even gonna touch it. Gee, I wonder how this one turns out. Is the answer 'Like every other one in the history of ever', Brain?

Yes, Pinky. Yes, it is.

[Aenarion]

WOULD I PLAY THIS GAME IF IT WERE SINGLE PLAYER?

No, nor would I want it to be. If I wanted to play a single player game, I’d go play a single player game. There are very different dynamics in play between single and multiplier games, much less MMOs. To judge a multiplier/MMO game on single player game metrics IMO is a terribly biased way of looking at things.

Beyond the obviously different experience the two are designed for, there is a social and persistence component that simply doesn’t exist in single player games, and for many people that’s what makes the MMO experience for them. For example, as much as I loved playing Tales of Xillia, I would not give it more than one play-through. Even my all-time favorites of FFT, VC, Xenogears etc, I would be hard-pressed to give them more than a few runs.

On the other hand, MMOs like Eve Online? It’s a game I would not enjoy playing it if it was a single player game - something like the X3 series, and I find myself getting bored incredibly fast in those. Yet I have immensely enjoyed my 7+ years in Eve, nor do I see myself ever quitting that game until the day it shuts down. The social aspect of the game and the persistent nature of the world turn what would’ve been a meaningless action in a single player game to something that actually matters in the online world – when I blow a ship up, it’s no longer just some pixels and numbers on my own PC, it’s someone else’s prized pixels and numbers

'Cause this just isn't a good game. Its an MMO alright, and there's this demented sort of...something akin to a twisted sort of pride that pervades the MMO gaming community, that MMO's don't have to be good games. They're not supposed to be good games. They're supposed to be grindfests that are painful to play because you're supposed to bleed, and suffer, and hate every step of it until you are hardcore, and then you are allowed to be proud and happy.

In some ways this is also seen in brutal sandboxes like Eve vs theme parks like ARR and WoW, we often get risk-averse players coming in Eve wondering why there isn’t guaranteed safety in high security space, to them the idea that one can be destroyed anytime, anywhere if someone else wanted to bad enough to be terrible. To us however, that makes the action you take in game actually meaningful, as you actually have something worthwhile on the line in a fight. IMO, you seem to be even further down on the scale.

I want a good game. There are lots of good games to play. WoW is a shockingly and amazingly good GAME to play. Of all the MMO's currently going, WoW is one of the few I'd play single player.

That is purely a matter of opinion, not objective fact. I’d rather play minesweeper than WoW.

SWTOR? Some of those class stories are pretty fun, though they suffer from some of the same disjointed schizophrenia that's plaging ARR's main story. You have to do way too much 'side' stuff between installments, and it gets really easy to wind up going 'Why do I care about this dumbface again? I remember what was happening, but not why I'm supposed to care' a lot in some of them. Not so much in others.

To me it just sounds like what you really want is a single player game with online components, rather than an actual MMO. That’s fine, but frankly IMO you’re looking at the wrong genre if that’s the type of game you’re looking for.

[Chrysania]

No, nor would I want it to be. If I wanted to play a single player game, I’d go play a single player game. There are very different dynamics in play between single and multiplier games, much less MMOs. To judge a multiplier/MMO game on single player game metrics IMO is a terribly biased way of looking at things.

Because I'm here to be an objective consumer (said nobody ever). Think I care if its biased? Think I'm here to be fair? I'll compare it to opening boxes of cracker jacks if I dang well please. There is no such thing as an objective metric on what makes a good game anyway.

There are, however, games that entertain me (subjective). There are ways to identify amazing games that clearly do well, and one can identify correlatives and even causatives between certain characteristics and that (chiefly financial) success.

FOR ME (subjective), its a very important question; would I play this if it were a single player game?

There are no objective questions to ask.

Beyond the obviously different experience the two are designed for, there is a social and persistence component that simply doesn’t exist in single player games, and for many people that’s what makes the MMO experience for them. For example, as much as I loved playing Tales of Xillia, I would not give it more than one play-through. Even my all-time favorites of FFT, VC, Xenogears etc, I would be hard-pressed to give them more than a few runs.

Yeah, I like the social aspect as well. However, the social aspect is 100% irrelevant to whether or not the game itself is crap, or is not.
Do you have wonderful people to play with? Maybe so! Maybe that makes your experience joyful. Does the game suck?

'Well, I have all these amazing people--" BZZT, irrelevant. DOES. THE GAME. SUCK? 'Well, but my friends are--" BZZT. Irrelevant.

Does. The game. Suck? Its you vs the game. Is it fun to play? 'Well I can't answer that if I can't factor for all my friends being there'

So all you really want is a chatroom? Why are you and your friends here, playing this game and not some other game? The game must not suck, yet there's very little I can see that is anything more than mediocre.

'Well, ok, A is boring and B is a grind, but if you have friends, you can--' BZZT, I don't care about your friends and I don't want to hear about how they make a sucky game tolerable; I get it, you enjoy hanging out with your friends and would like to do things with them, even if those things are retarded.

Does. The game. Suck?

If you think yes, why?

If you think no, why?

On the other hand, MMOs like Eve Online? It’s a game I would not enjoy playing it if it was a single player game - something like the X3 series, and I find myself getting bored incredibly fast in those. Yet I have immensely enjoyed my 7+ years in Eve, nor do I see myself ever quitting that game until the day it shuts down. The social aspect of the game and the persistent nature of the world turn what would’ve been a meaningless action in a single player game to something that actually matters in the online world – when I blow a ship up, it’s no longer just some pixels and numbers on my own PC, it’s someone else’s prized pixels and numbers

So the game sucks, but you like hanging out with your friends and only perceive meaning in your in-game actions if someone else acknowledges them, chiefly by suffering? Sanctioned sociopathy. /thumbsup.jpg

In some ways this is also seen in brutal sandboxes like Eve vs theme parks like ARR and WoW, we often get risk-averse players coming in Eve wondering why there isn’t guaranteed safety in high security space, to them the idea that one can be destroyed anytime, anywhere if someone else wanted to bad enough to be terrible. To us however, that makes the action you take in game actually meaningful, as you actually have something worthwhile on the line in a fight. IMO, you seem to be even further down on the scale.

Most of those people probably wanted a neat game in space to play and instead found crazy sociopaths and a game that sucks if you have no friends to distract you from the game being boring as banging two rocks together.

That is purely a matter of opinion, not objective fact. I’d rather play minesweeper than WoW.

WoW proves itself to be a good game to play along many objective metrics. Here's one; it lost more players than FFXIV has ever had or (almost certainly) will ever have and STILL has close to ten million active subs. Hallmark of a bad game? Must be. /bizarrelogic.jpg

To me it just sounds like what you really want is a single player game with online components, rather than an actual MMO. That’s fine, but frankly IMO you’re looking at the wrong genre if that’s the type of game you’re looking for.

Bzzt, you have guessed poorly. I like MMO's in general. Gear treadmills, I despise because its the rat everyone keeps boiling for the increasingly watery stew that nobody was honestly enjoying in the first place. Increasing numbers of people are admitting that the treadmills themselves are not fun and the whole appeal is to get that sense of completion/satisfaction/achievement/e-peen bragging rights when they finally make it.

Unfortunately for the MMO industry, its so easy to do gear treadmills that virtually everyone has done it absolutely to death, and even the most monosyllabic mental midget that has difficulty outwitting fenceposts are getting sick and tired of them.

I have single player games. I have a whole backlog I have to get around to playing still, and that's grand. I also like replaying the classics.

Online components in single player? Ehh, that didn't work out so well with Fable 3. Nice gimmick, ultimately pointless. Nah. I like my single player games the way I like my ice cream; not with your (ubiquitous, non-specific 'your') face anywhere near it.

Multiplayer? I'd do somewhat absurd things and spend obscene sums of money for the ability to have multiplayer in Skyrim, yes. But Bethesda is also insanely stupid and can't possibly give us multiplayer Elder Scrolls.

And then there are these Final Fantasy MMO's that seem to have nothing to do with any final fantasy game ever. Tiny pieces of a fun game have been shotgun sprayed into this ball of grind, and I'd like to play that fun game. However, even if you take all the pieces, subtract the grind and put them together in order, you don't have a fun game.

But you are right on one point; I'm looking in the wrong genre for what I want.

Because what I want is simple: I'd like to play a good Final Fantasy MMO. That sort of thing, sadly, does not exist.

Its funny though. You speak as though there's a certain lockstepped form that an MMO must take to be an MMO. The only requirement is that it be massively multi-player.

'Suck' is not required. It'll be amazing when some developing studio figures out that their game doesn't have to be sucky, painful and generally an exercise in balancing frustrations to play in order to be an MMO.

Today is clearly not that day.