Get rid of the prices in market search

[Xenor]

That's why as I've ranked up my Carpenter to 30, I have never made a single mask. I've made lots of javelins and arrows and I sell every single one. If you choose to grind on something that has no market value, that's not my fault. As long as I can sell for 26 gil / arrow or mre to cover the cost of supplies then I'm happy, and I'll keep reducing my prices down to 26 gil / arrow to make sure my inventory turns over quick. If prices fall below 26 gil / arrow, then I'll move on to a different synth that will sustain me buying replacement mats so that I can keep synthing without taking a loss.

That's a good way of doing it but it's not going to get you to 50 because to go from 30 to 50 you're looking at about 4000 synths. How long do you think it will take you to sell 4000 profitable items or 1333 stacks of arrows? If everyone tried to do what you do the cost of arrows would be about 5k gil a stack and us archers would be very happy.

You don't lose much gil on masks anyway, CRP is probably the cheapest craft to rank up. A walnut mask sells for about 1500 gil to an NPC, you can buy a log for 8k so that's what, 500 gil loss per synth plus shards. 4k synths is 2mil gil. Hardly worth going into the kind of effort you are to skill up. If you make the shards yourself from fish and crystals you can do that cheap too. There's faster ways of recovering that 2mil + shard cost than doing what you're doing. Like getting to 50 sometime before next year and HQing crab bows. :P All those items you can HQ at 50 are losing value the longer it takes you to get there. You're losing gil there.

@op... so basically... the economy is working? I mean, I've worked for companies before where part of my job was going literally next door, finding out what my competitors were selling stuff for, and then undercutting them with daily sales prices. What your describing to me is... normal?

Does your customer have a screen outside your shop telling you what your price is, your neighbour's price is and every other shop in the city's price is? No? Then don't compare it to the real world. I believe I covered this already.

People are clearly missing the point/unable to read in this thread. Coming out with tripe like "if someone can sell their product cheaper than you then they should" because this isn't about selling it cheaper, it's about moving your product first. Do people honestly care about the 1k gil they lose from undercutting a stack of 10k items by 10 gil? Do you honestly believe they're undercutting because of price? Yet half this thread seems to think yes.

No, they're undercutting because they want their name at the top of the list in the same way a child always wants to go first. Their name will always be at the top of the list, because selling it for 10 gil less than whatever you list it at is irrelevant to them. I have started to combat the issue somewhat however. My alt character is almost always sat by the market wards when my main is out on the field.

[origamikitsune]

That's a good way of doing it but it's not going to get you to 50 because to go from 30 to 50 you're looking at about 4000 synths. How long do you think it will take you to sell 4000 profitable items or 1333 stacks of arrows? If everyone tried to do what you do the cost of arrows would be about 5k gil a stack and us archers would be very happy.

You don't lose much gil on masks anyway, CRP is probably the cheapest craft to rank up. A walnut mask sells for about 1500 gil to an NPC, you can buy a log for 8k so that's what, 500 gil loss per synth plus shards. 4k synths is 2mil gil. Hardly worth going into the kind of effort you are to skill up. If you make the shards yourself from fish and crystals you can do that cheap too. There's faster ways of recovering that 2mil + shard cost than doing what you're doing. Like getting to 50 sometime before next year and HQing crab bows. :P All those items you can HQ at 50 are losing value the longer it takes you to get there. You're losing gil there.



Does your customer have a screen outside your shop telling you what your price is, your neighbour's price is and every other shop in the city's price is? No? Then don't compare it to the real world. I believe I covered this already.

People are clearly missing the point/unable to read in this thread. Coming out with tripe like "if someone can sell their product cheaper than you then they should" because this isn't about selling it cheaper, it's about moving your product first. Do people honestly care about the 1k gil they lose from undercutting a stack of 10k items by 10 gil? Do you honestly believe they're undercutting because of price? Yet half this thread seems to think yes.

No, they're undercutting because they want their name at the top of the list in the same way a child always wants to go first. Their name will always be at the top of the list, because selling it for 10 gil less than whatever you list it at is irrelevant to them. I have started to combat the issue somewhat however. My alt character is almost always sat by the market wards when my main is out on the field.

Does my customer have a screen showing the price of my item and the price of my competitors item. That's a very good question, and a very valid point.

In fact, they do. Many of them do, at least. Certainly, I use my cellphone to price shop. Even aside from all the apps for all the different cell phones, a couple pokes and prods on my cell phone will tell me the price of, say, Final Fantasy XIV at all the local game stores in my zip code, or city, or state through a web browser.

I still fail to see the issue with this, which is to say that I understand your point of view; I do however believe it is wrong. While there needs to be some tweaking of the things that affect the economy, such as the removal of goods, more gil sinks to keep inflation down, etc., removal of the prices - i believe at least - is not an overall benefit to the economy.

[MarkH]

It is always about the price. Why do you think people want their product to sell first? It is because there really isn't any demand for many of those item to justify paying whatever the crafters are asking for. Because the price currently is so much higher than the cost, many people want in on a piece of the delicious market, and make too many item. It is all about the price. High price, low cost= very high profit. High profit = many supplier, high price = low demand, High supply, low demand = slow inventory overturn rate = undercutting and price war.

Do you know what will render the demand even lower? removing the price in search and making it take much longer to go to each retainer and see which one is cheapest. The longer search time will become an opportunity cost, a deterrent for buyer which will further lower demand.

Seeing as how you can undercut other people back and it is still worth it for you to waste your time periodically checking the price, I have a feeling your profit margin is still very very high. Lower that profit margin and there will be less and less people willing to make and try to sell item. Item will sell faster and there will be much less incentive to undercut you. For a generic product in a perfectly competitive market, the profit shouldn't be more than 10%.

Seriously, don't expect to make a killing selling thing load of other people can make. I see no reason why SE should make a very fraustrating game even more fraustrating just to feed some people's greed.

[Eldaena]

@Eldaena:

Damnit it's still longer than I wanted it to be.. oh well, read on if you want.

In answer to your first question, yes. "fair price" isn't synonymous with what one might construe as the "morally correct price" whatever shape that concept might take. It is simply the price that, on average, people are willing to pay for an item. This is in contrast to the price at which, on average, people are willing to sell their item for. It is the price at which a sale is made (that is where the seller's price is acceptable to the buyer and a transaction is completed) that is the "fair price". You can and have full right to list your items for whatever you want, as do we all. If you never make a sale based on the price you've listed (even if as your second question asked, you are the only person selling), then you may as well never have listed the item in the first place. The price is as good as no price at all since it does not attract a single buyer.

the "fair price" has to be two sided. If the buyer says "I'll pay 1 gil for that" and no-one in their right mind would accept that price, then he/she is just throwing random meaningless numbers out. If the seller overestimates the worth of their item and says "I want a billion million gil for this or I won't sell it", than they'll get to keep their item until hell freezes over because they're also just throwing random meaningless numbers out. It only becomes a real and meaningful "fair price" when at least one full transaction is completed. That forms a very slim record of sales with only one price but that's a start. From that point on generally the "fair price" adjusts itself based on the volume of supply (ie. rarity) etc... But the prices along the way that form the relevant "fair price" of the day are only those values where transactions have been completed at the listed price, not those random deviations where people massively overestimate the worth of something (from the sellers perspective). The "take it or leave it" articulation of what construes a "fair price" is a touch too one sided. But as I said earlier, we're all free to list things for whatever random value we feel like listing them for. If nobody ever buys your item and you keep re-listing it, the only person's time wasted is your own, and that's just fine.

Thanks for being more clear on what I meant to say on my post. =p This is basically how I see the marketplace now.

[Xenor]

Does my customer have a screen showing the price of my item and the price of my competitors item. That's a very good question, and a very valid point.

In fact, they do. Many of them do, at least. Certainly, I use my cellphone to price shop. Even aside from all the apps for all the different cell phones, a couple pokes and prods on my cell phone will tell me the price of, say, Final Fantasy XIV at all the local game stores in my zip code, or city, or state through a web browser.

I still fail to see the issue with this, which is to say that I understand your point of view; I do however believe it is wrong. While there needs to be some tweaking of the things that affect the economy, such as the removal of goods, more gil sinks to keep inflation down, etc., removal of the prices - i believe at least - is not an overall benefit to the economy.

It depends what you're shopping for I guess. If you're doing your groceries for example you're hardly going to look up each item because that's just a ridiculous amount of time wasted and you'd end up visiting multiple shops which in the end won't save you more than a few pounds/dollars. Only when I'm buying something expensive do I care enough to price compare. Price compare is forced on you for everything in FFXIV which is why you can't relate it to the real world.

I already conceded that almost everyone doesn't want prices removed and that making items rarer and adding gil sinks is probably a better solution. But in reality most people on here won't be happy until NPCs sell everything for 1 gil so any solutions to fix the economy will be bashed except by a small minority of people with common sense.

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You act like removing prices would only benefit me. No, this is simply not true. It benefits everyone who ever sells anything. You get your fair price and you get your *** sold just as fast as those who have the ability to sit by the market wards all day. I fail to see how this makes me greedy because I'd probably end up selling some things slower as a result.

But you're just copy and pasting arguments that have been done to death and already answered a couple of posts above yours so I need say no more.

[Anty]

It depends what you're shopping for I guess. If you're doing your groceries for example you're hardly going to look up each item because that's just a ridiculous amount of time wasted and you'd end up visiting multiple shops which in the end won't save you more than a few pounds/dollars. Only when I'm buying something expensive do I care enough to price compare. Price compare is forced on you for everything in FFXIV which is why you can't relate it to the real world.

I already conceded that almost everyone doesn't want prices removed and that making items rarer and adding gil sinks is probably a better solution. But in reality most people on here won't be happy until NPCs sell everything for 1 gil so any solutions to fix the economy will be bashed except by a small minority of people with common sense.



You act like removing prices would only benefit me. No, this is simply not true. It benefits everyone who ever sells anything. You get your fair price and you get your *** sold just as fast as those who have the ability to sit by the market wards all day. I fail to see how this makes me greedy because I'd probably end up selling some things slower as a result.

But you're just copy and pasting arguments that have been done to death and already answered a couple of posts above yours so I need say no more.

removing the prices will increase the use of YG.com and people will not only have the prices but also the history
like it was before. Its annoying but people will use it... with so many crafters on all servers well see undercutting anyways.
I don't know why people don't get it...

[origamikitsune]

That's a good way of doing it but it's not going to get you to 50 because to go from 30 to 50 you're looking at about 4000 synths. How long do you think it will take you to sell 4000 profitable items or 1333 stacks of arrows? If everyone tried to do what you do the cost of arrows would be about 5k gil a stack and us archers would be very happy.

You don't lose much gil on masks anyway, CRP is probably the cheapest craft to rank up. A walnut mask sells for about 1500 gil to an NPC, you can buy a log for 8k so that's what, 500 gil loss per synth plus shards. 4k synths is 2mil gil. Hardly worth going into the kind of effort you are to skill up. If you make the shards yourself from fish and crystals you can do that cheap too. There's faster ways of recovering that 2mil + shard cost than doing what you're doing. Like getting to 50 sometime before next year and HQing crab bows. :P All those items you can HQ at 50 are losing value the longer it takes you to get there. You're losing gil there.



Does your customer have a screen outside your shop telling you what your price is, your neighbour's price is and every other shop in the city's price is? No? Then don't compare it to the real world. I believe I covered this already.

People are clearly missing the point/unable to read in this thread. Coming out with tripe like "if someone can sell their product cheaper than you then they should" because this isn't about selling it cheaper, it's about moving your product first. Do people honestly care about the 1k gil they lose from undercutting a stack of 10k items by 10 gil? Do you honestly believe they're undercutting because of price? Yet half this thread seems to think yes.

No, they're undercutting because they want their name at the top of the list in the same way a child always wants to go first. Their name will always be at the top of the list, because selling it for 10 gil less than whatever you list it at is irrelevant to them. I have started to combat the issue somewhat however. My alt character is almost always sat by the market wards when my main is out on the field.

Now we're on the same page; you're right, for things like groceries that I get all the time, I don't check prices on a day-to-day basis, or a per-item basis.

However, I do remember what the market wards were like before prices were listed, and it wasn't pretty. There was little to no flow of goods. Regardless of whether or not there is inflation, the economy tanks when there is no flow of goods; this is something we had an object lesson in recently in the United States. When the economy tanked it kept tanking and stayed in the gutter because everyone stopped buying. It is getting better now, but the ramifications are still being felt.

Granted - our real world economy is infinitely more complex and there were a hell of a lot of other issues. But there are many parallels on many levels. And economy is an economy, no matter its size, and some basic rules are universal.

I honestly don't think that the price history is an issue. In fact, I very specifically think it was a needed fix to a problem. The current problem of undercutting I truly believe has more to do with the fact that it is extremely easy to undercut because it is way too easy to introduce items to the market.

Undercutting would not happen to the degree it does if there were higher demand. Demand is low because 1.) player base is low and 2.) player base is composed primarily of dedicated players with the ability to easily supply. If someone could sell something fast by listing their item at the same price as 10 other people, it would be a non-issue; those ten people would sell even if they did/didn't undercut each other. As it is now, only the lowest one or two people move goods.

This is an issue, I believe, that Yoshida is aware of. Indications seem to be that the materia system may address this issue in part, either by locking items to a player (thereby removing an item from the economy to some degree), or by destruction (possibly using finished items to create improvements to other items), or by some other means. At least, we can hope this is the case, because its needed!

Anyhow. Yeah. I think other solution will address the supply/demand issue, mitigating the undercutting. Remember, if 10 people want to buy your item, and will pay 100k for it, it doesn't matter if 9 people are selling it a 50k; one person will still buy it at 100k.

2 more cents.

[Rentahamster]

But in reality most people on here won't be happy until NPCs sell everything for 1 gil so any solutions to fix the economy will be bashed except by a small minority of people with common sense.

Hyperbole much?

Do you consider yourself to be the "small minority of people with common sense"?

[Ryoshi]

The OP should crack open an econ 101 textbook, methinks. Sorry, but you just don't seem to understand how markets operate, either real or fictional. You seem to be trying to find a solution that consistently lets crafters overprice their wares by creating an artificial barrier to price checking without realizing that this in and of itself will tank the economy by zeroing out the demand.

[MarkH]

OP, why is it that when your stuff don't sell, you don't think "Is my price so expensive that no one want to buy my item?" "Am I making so much profit that many other want in on the action?" "Why don't I cut my price in half so that more people can afford and want to buy my item?" and instead jump to conclusion that "The fault lie with the undercutter! They act like kids and camp the ward 24/7!" or "SE is at fault, showing people better deal and everyone no longer want to pay the price I demand!".

The problem is that the price are way to high comparing to the ingredient cost, I should know, a sprouting radical cost me roughly 25000 to make and i can sell them regularly for 100000, that's a 300% mark up, it used to be a 700% mark up until someone undercut me and i decides, why not halve my price? I'll still be making profit and hopefully it'll sell faster.

You say those undercutter are acting like a child, but I think the childish one is those who when faced with a problem, blame everyone but themselve and whine and cry for other to fix it for them.

The price in market search make it more convenient for people to buy things. It drive up demand, I for one periodically do searchs for Lightning/Fire cluster, even when I have no use for them, and if it's lower than 20000, I buy. If the price are not there, I wouldn't bother looking until I need them. (Now I have over 100 Fire+Lightning Cluster without the will to break them ._.). The price of Radiant Lightning Moraine has also gone up because of the price search, it use to be that 5000ish is kinda expensive, right now 10000 is normal, and very few people ever sell them for less.

Seriously, stop thinking "And I could keep making so much profit too, if it weren't for you meddling kids" and start thinking, why is it worth it for these people to undercut me? Is it because the profit is wayy too high? Is it because the price is so high it drive potential buyer away and now I have to compete for a share of a rapidly shrinking market?