Help, Why do I lose aggro when healer cast regen?

[Kitru]

The different healing powers have different enmity mods. Regen has an enmity modifier of 1. Cure has an enmity modifier of .5. Cure II and a lot of the bigger heals have an enmity modifier of .8.

Barring Provoke on a target that you have absolutely no threat on while someone else has a crapton, Medica II is the highest enmity generating power *in the game*: it'll hit 8 targets for a potency 200 heal at a .8 modifier and then tick for 500 more over 15 seconds at a modifier of 1. That's 5280 enmity as spell potency *from a single 3 second cast*.

No healer should cast Regen or Medica II *any time* close to an add spawning: 10 seconds before and after a new enemy enters combat is Medica II/Regen no-time. If a healer casts either of those spells during that time, that healer better expect to take more than a few hits to the face by ripping aggro off of the tank, regardless of how good the tank is at generating aggro. Even Shroud of Saints isn't going to do enough a lot of the time: they simply generate *too much enmity* for a tank to rip back.

Most of the time that a healer rips aggro from a tank, it's not the tank's fault: healing generates aggro *really* efficiently, especially when it's AoE healing. A healer that heals indiscriminately is going to give even an *amazing* tank a helluva time.

[Niadissa]

As a healer I notice this too, I try not to cast regen towards the end of a fight, but because it does happen, tanks should also be in the habit of looking at there buffs before pulling, you may have a regen buff lingering from the last fight, and if you pull with that on, you may keep the mob that you hit first, but the other 2 are going straight for me lol

[Tassos]

As a healer I notice this too, I try not to cast regen towards the end of a fight, but because it does happen, tanks should also be in the habit of looking at there buffs before pulling, you may have a regen buff lingering from the last fight, and if you pull with that on, you may keep the mob that you hit first, but the other 2 are going straight for me lol

This will never happen. The enmity from all over-time skills is front loaded, meaning all enmity is generated at the time of casting and not over the duration.

I'm going to try what i saw on another post about crit-berserked combo stuff. i watched every youtube video i could ever find for a war/marauder class. did exactly how they pull, position. I am still the worst tanker despite following what veterans do. ah nightmare..!

I know the feeling. I don't take the game seriously enough and have friends rage at me occasionally for doing a crap job. All in good time eh?

[Addonex]

It does nothing for ripping threat off of someone that isn't grouped with you (like FATE tanking).

Hey Kitru, I too feel Provoke is only useful in the utmost extreme circumstances given the way it functions, and thus don't use it. But that said, I was curious if your above claim of how Provoke worked vs. players outside your own group was accurate, as I've never tested it myself.

I bring it up because of the example of 'FATE tanking' you inserted at the end there. I recall the patch notes before launch noting that they made Provoke unusable in FATES (presumably to prevent people from griefing bosses by leashing them). So that in turn led me to wondering if your claim of how Provoke worked outside the group was accurate for all contexts and you just thought 'FATE tanking' to be a good example of where it might arise, or if it's possible the example you gave was the premise for why you believed that to be the way it functions.

Addonex

[Ikkeh]

Being a lalafel will play a big part in losing aggro as all your abilities will be doing 20/25% less enmity. If you check http://ventusinvictus.blogspot.com/2...din-guide.html it will give you a bit more info.

Normally if I lose agro I will provoke + tomahawk x 2 or provoke + skull sunder/butchers block aslong as the combo is active. I never use provoke + heavy swing as it will just go back to the dpser/healer.

Your rotation looks good but I nearly always Heavy Swing - Skull Sunder - Butcher's Block x 2 just to make sure. Otherwise if someone gets aggro whilst you're doing your dps combo it is a nightmare.

Also you are opening with tomahawk i hope?

[Kitru]

Hey Kitru, I too feel Provoke is only useful in the utmost extreme circumstances given the way it functions, and thus don't use it. But that said, I was curious if your above claim of how Provoke worked vs. players outside your own group was accurate, as I've never tested it myself.

When I was leveling PLD (admittedly, that was about 2 weeks ago), I did a lot of FATEs. Whenever someone that was out of my group had aggro on something, I could Provoke it, but it wouldn't do anything but would still go on CD (did this *numerous* times on Svara). Whenever someone in my own group had aggro on something, I could Provoke it and it would behave exactly as it's supposed to (once again, did it several times on Svara).

[Kitru]

This will never happen. The enmity from all over-time skills is front loaded, meaning all enmity is generated at the time of casting and not over the duration.

Try doing a pull with Regen on you. Before you even get a chance to throw out *anything*, everything except for the target you hit with Tomahawk/Shield Lob is going to go running to the healer. Also, try having a tank swat a single target and then throw a DoT on it; you'll start off with barely any aggro and watch it slowly crawl up.

Effects over time most *definitely* generate aggro with each tick. They *might* be frontloaded (I have my doubts and it might actually be on a case-by-case basis for each ability), but, at best, it's 50% of total enmity upon application with the ticks generating 50% as much as otherwise.

[CyanDvai]

snip

True story. I can't tell you how many times I've had a healer cast regen on me AS I'm running in to pull a group of mobs.
There are also the healers that love to spam their AoE heals for some ungodly reason when the only person that has any dmg is me (or maybe that dps that targeted the wrong mob).

It can be a pain fighting to get hate back from a trigger happy healer, same thing can be said about dps.
Tanking is a party effort, unless you have a horrible tank, if you're getting smacked in the face, you probably over did something.

[Duelle]

True story. I can't tell you how many times I've had a healer cast regen on me AS I'm running in to pull a group of mobs.

Regen and all HoTs applied on the tank prior to pull are there to mitigate incoming damage at the beginning of combat (specially with packs of mobs that will eat through stoneskin in a fraction of a second). HoTs are both Proactive and Reactive; the only real issue is that the healer should never regen everyone in the group prior to pull. That's where you see the most aggro issues with Regen.

FFXIV lacks a support role that can funnel enmity back into the tank or away from DPS/Healers effectively - this was the function of a Thief in FFXI.

Hate tranfer, like buffing and debuffing, is a tertiary class aspect and a perk that can be given to a select few DPS that make sense. WoW's Rogue and Hunter classes had nifty abilities to transfer hate (Tricks of the Trade AKA "DPS buff to the tank while transferring a percentage of generated threat to the tank" and Misdirect AKA "a much better, ranged version of trick attack") while still being good DPS. I don't see why Thief and Ranger/Gunner/<insert ranged job> wouldn't have that be part of their arsenal.

[Kitru]

Regen and all HoTs applied on the tank prior to pull are there to mitigate incoming damage at the beginning of combat (specially with packs of mobs that will eat through stoneskin in a fraction of a second). HoTs are both Proactive and Reactive; the only real issue is that the healer should never regen everyone in the group prior to pull. That's where you see the most aggro issues with Regen.

It doesn't matter whether Regen is on one target or all targets in a pull: having a HoT on anyone is going to immediately draw everything away from the tank and towards the healer as soon as combat begins. Rather than running to the tank so that they can be nicely grouped up and easily picked up, the group will splinter and spread out, making it way harder and much less efficient for the tank to do so. Any healer that thinks that it's even remotely close to okay to start off a fight with *anyone* HoTed up is actively trying to make life harder on the tank for no particularly good reason: there aren't any fight/pulls that burst hard enough in the beginning that you need the extra couple of ticks that said HoT would provide.

The only things that a healer should put on people are absorb shields, since those *don't* draw aggro while still doing *exactly* what said healer wants out of them: eating the first few hits while they set up and gauge the fight. HoTs do the job *worse* while also being *way* riskier and annoying to boot.