Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Duelle]

One of the first things you'd need to do would be to add a stance (or trait) that allows you to use DEX instead of STR for melee attacks, probably at level 2.

Why would you need a stance to change DEX to STR? You could just have the class scale with DEX as its main stat. It's not like MNKs and LNCs want yet another class to compete with for gear. Or is this more due to blanket rules like "DEX boosts ranged attacks"?

Reveal would need to only apply to piercing damage to prevent *massive* value inflation. An improved Reveal trait later on (40-50) *could* have it apply to more than one damage type, but not all.

I was treating Reveal's debuff to have a similar value as Feint's Slow, Rage of Hallone's STR Down and so on (and unlike Feint, Reveal would do no damage, so you essentially "waste" a GCD applying it to increase raid DPS). The debuff's value would be more determined by the percentage, which is why I left that undefined. When I originally conceived Reveal I wanted it to become a single-use debuff for FNC and RDM and a stacking debuff for Mystic Knight though MTK's soul crystal mechanic (using the stacks more as a threat modifier for MTK rather than to further increase raid DPS while MTK is tanking).

I guess I can allow the change to just piercing damage, but it would become more of a self-DPS buff unless your party/raid is stacking DRGs.

One variation might be to have Magic Sword act somewhat like Defiance insofar as it adds bonus functionality to existing combo attack.

An alternative would be Magic Sword reacting to whichever debuff was placed on the mob via the Soul Thrust => Spell combo. If the mob has no Burn/Frost/Shock debuff, Magic Sword cannot be used. If the mob has Burn/Frost/Shock, then Magic Sword deals damage and takes on the elemental property of the debuff. You could even have MSword consume the debuff if you want to add a "skill" component.

[Kitru]

Why would you need a stance to change DEX to STR? You could just have the class scale with DEX as its main stat. It's not like MNKs and LNCs want yet another class to compete with for gear. Or is this more due to blanket rules like "DEX boosts ranged attacks"?

There aren't any classes, at the moment, that use a stat for cross purposes. There are classes/abilities that swap stats however. DEX is specifically listed as modifying ranged attacks so, unless that were changed to apply on a class-by-class basis, there would need to be some mechanic that encourage/forces DEX stacking rather than STR stacking so as to prevent MNK/DRG gear competition.

By the way, I wasn't saying that STR and DEX should be *switched*. I was saying that the stance/trait should, effectively, apply ranged damage modifiers to melee attacks. All of the gear they would want to use would have DEX on it, not STR, since, if I had my way, I'd have STR do nothing except for increase Parry value. There would be no reason for FNC to use MNK/DRG gear because that gear has STR on it, which would be either a sub-standard or outright useless stat to have.

I was treating Reveal's debuff to have a similar value as Feint's Slow, Rage of Hallone's STR Down and so on (and unlike Feint, Reveal would do no damage, so you essentially "waste" a GCD applying it to increase raid DPS). The debuff's value would be more determined by the percentage, which is why I left that undefined. When I originally conceived Reveal I wanted it to become a single-use debuff for FNC and RDM and a stacking debuff for Mystic Knight though MTK's soul crystal mechanic (using the stacks more as a threat modifier for MTK rather than to further increase raid DPS while MTK is tanking).

The problem with trying to treat it like Slow or STR Down is that there's a fair deal of difference between reducing incoming damage (with Halone, it's a fundamental aspect of PLD tanking: 10% lower STR makes you take less damage; the Slow does it, as applied by a DPS, but that Slow suffers from DR very quickly and many bosses end up being immune to it; this is one of the big reasons why Haymaker is effectively worthless for WAR) and increasing damage taken from *all* sources. As it stands, the existing +dam mechanisms really only buff your own damage or that of a small number of other classes: WAR increases WAR and PLD, DRG increases BRD and DRG, BRD (with a song that they don't even keep up all the time) increases BLM and tiny bits of a couple other classes. With the exception of the BRD, the +dam mechanisms exist as a self buff with a tangential benefit to someone else: you don't use them so that other people benefit but rather so that *you* benefit. This limits the maximum contribution that a single class can provide to a large number of people by restricting it to only certain classes.

A global -resist debuff would either need to have a really low contribution number or have a limited uptime. As a kind of support CD, it could easily work, but I don't see that as part of FNC but rather RDM. The "support" aspect of a class/job pairing doesn't really appear until you get into the "job".

As to having Reveal, which you list as a functionality of the class rather than the job, do *completely* separate things for each, it pushes design credulity a bit. You want to have an ability be a single stack group-wide damage buff for one job and a stacking, personal enmity buff for the other. It's like *possible* for it to be done as such (SCH changing the summon spells to something completely different is pretty good precedent), but it's a really inelegant solution. It would be better for it just be 2 separate abilities for each job.

Also, using a debuff as an enmity multiplier is a really wonky mechanic. Even if you use it as a resource to be consumed, it still creates a really weird construct where you have a longer time frame before you actually generate reasonable threat (recall: the other tanks have to get to the end of their combo to generate truly effective enmity generation). If it stacked up and wasn't consumed, you'd then be creating a construct where you start off with weak threat (which is when you need it most) and, only after the fight is already 10-20 seconds deep, work up to having useful amounts of it (which is when you need it the least).

There's a really good reason that enmity multipliers are always passives or self-buffs: doing it any other way is simply makes a tank *drastically* less effective.

An alternative would be Magic Sword reacting to whichever debuff was placed on the mob via the Soul Thrust => Spell combo. If the mob has no Burn/Frost/Shock debuff, Magic Sword cannot be used. If the mob has Burn/Frost/Shock, then Magic Sword deals damage and takes on the elemental property of the debuff. You could even have MSword consume the debuff if you want to add a "skill" component.

I actually changed my design a *lot* from what you originally posited, mainly because there was enough that I didn't agree with as part of what you wanted me to fill in around, like having a 2 separate "base" combo attacks to create the separate trees, that I didn't feel comfortable working within those confines. I also pushed Magic Weapon, as it applies to RDM, through 2 other names/iterations and gave Magic Sword to MYS. I actually came to agree with Marta that an enchanted weapon makes less sense for RDM than it does for MYS; it makes more sense for a RDM to cast spells as part of stabbing someone than enchanting their weapon with magic (which is pretty much the MYS's entire schtick).

[Duelle]

DEX is specifically listed as modifying ranged attacks so, unless that were changed to apply on a class-by-class basis, there would need to be some mechanic that encourage/forces DEX stacking rather than STR stacking so as to prevent MNK/DRG gear competition.

I think it'll have to be applied on a class-by-class basis, otherwise you're going to have hideous overlap once Rogue (or whatever Yoshida chooses to name the dagger class he keeps hinting at) enters the game. It is under this idea that I would want FNC to scale with DEX rather than STR.

A global -resist debuff would either need to have a really low contribution number or have a limited uptime. As a kind of support CD, it could easily work, but I don't see that as part of FNC but rather RDM. The "support" aspect of a class/job pairing doesn't really appear until you get into the "job".

If asked to give a number, for me it would be something fairly low like 4% damage increase. And you're right, I'm playing to a "support" aspect, though the reason I would make it part of the class rather than the job was to allow overlap between RDM and MTK. I do understand we'd potentially run into a bloodlust/heroism problem if FNC/RDM/MTK is the only source of +4% overall damage to the raid, though.

As to having Reveal, which you list as a functionality of the class rather than the job, do *completely* separate things for each, it pushes design credulity a bit. You want to have an ability be a single stack group-wide damage buff for one job and a stacking, personal enmity buff for the other. It's like *possible* for it to be done as such, but it's a really inelegant solution. It would be better for it just be 2 separate abilities for each job.

Here's where I'll make a WoW comparison, because the way I picture Reveal is as the inverse of how Sunder Armor works for all three warrior specs. Ideally the one to apply Sunder Armor should be a prot (tank) warrior, though before they started spreading tank mechanics all over the place you could have a DPS-specced warrior (fury/dual-wield or arms/two-hander) applying the debuff because raid DPS > personal DPS.

So you had prot warriors using their spec-based attack (Devastate) that did damage AND apply Sunder Armor, or you had an arms/fury warrior weaving Sunder Armor into their rotations (or in Cataclysm, simply use Glyph of Colossus Smash) to apply and refresh the debuff. I know this is utility that transcends the class/job set up, but also keep in mind it does play to a "support" aspect some people have been asking for. I also know such utility usually warrants DPS nerfs on a class level, so I'm not too attached to the concept but do see the appeal in it.

Also, using a debuff as an enmity multiplier is a really wonky mechanic. Even if you use it as a resource to be consumed, it still creates a really weird construct where you have a longer time frame before you actually generate reasonable threat. If it stacked up and wasn't consumed, you'd then be creating a construct where you start off with weak threat (which is when you need it most) and, only after the fight is already 10-20 seconds deep, work up to having useful amounts of it (which is when you need it the least).

There's a really good reason that enmity multipliers are always passives or self-buffs: doing it any other way is simply makes a tank *drastically* less effective.

I'll admit that my idea for MTK is based on the other idea I had for it, where Reveal would be a secondary threat modifier while Ice Brand (permanent sword enchant, +35~% enmity to all actions) would be the primary thread modifier.

As for the reason behind the stacking, the intent is to give MTK something to weave into their rotation because aside from benefiting the raid it also benefits their threat generation. I could simply keep it at one stack and just add a high enmity value (along the same potency as Flash but single-target) that could be weaved in to maintain threat but would be far from MTK's main threat tool. I also would see it as an alternative to "combo for higher enmity" (WAR's relationship with Maim) without falling back on too many abilities with built-in high enmity (what PLD is basically built on).

[Warthain]

this screams Op everywhere i look at... lol, never going to happen, and so much stacking buffs for crit chance, in a tank? lol.... skills in dps league and above, 300 power, 600 potency, stuns, multiple party buffs, all Lb at your disposal? why not give him all cleric heals and be done with it, one class to rule them all lol

[Kitru]

this screams Op everywhere i look at

Maybe that's because you're completely and utterly clueless.

so much stacking buffs for crit chance, in a tank?

You realize that WAR has a constant 10% crit buff and access to a 15% increased crit chance buff with 25% uptime, right? This means that WAR gets, on average, a 13.75% increase to its crit rate. This class only gets marginally more (10% from LOS and 1 guaranteed crit every 30 seconds, which makes it like Life Surge, except it's unreliable so you're just as likely to get it on your big attack as a weaker one, so you get about half of the practical benefit).

The only crit effects that I gave this class were Feint (one crit every 30 seconds) and Luck Over Skill, which is only marginally more effective than Internal Release (30% +crit with 33% uptime compared to 30% +crit with 25% uptime). The entire point is that it's a crit focused DPS as the base class and for a portion of the tank's mitigation to be drawn from scoring critical hits since it's grown out of a crit focused DPS class.

skills in dps league and above

It's based off of a DPS class so that's kind of where they're coming from in the first place. On top of that, those numbers weren't calculated. They were just chosen in a kind of "eh, seems about right" kind of way. Complaining about the numbers being too high without having even done any math to put them into perspective (you'll notice that the *only* damage buffs I included were those crit buffs) is simply idiotic.

, 300 power, 600 potency, stuns, multiple party buffs, all Lb at your disposal?

Do you not realize that you're talking about 2 different jobs there? Red Mage is DPS with support capability and Mystic Knight is tank. The support capability of the Red Mage is derived from those buffs and the ability to bring whatever LB is needed. It's akin to the BRD resource benefits which are a *massive* boon to a group. Keep in mind, they have to have the the relevant aura up in order to access the other LBs and those have only 1/6 uptimes so you have to choose between retaining the ability to choose your LB on the fly or providing those buffs to your group.

The stuns are just part of tanking and DPSing by default (PLD has no CD on theirs; how are you even bringing that stun capability up now?) and the 600 potency attack is intentionally huge: it turns off your tank stance which has a 20 sec CD. Rather than getting a DPS stance or massive native +damage buffs, the Mystic Knight get a massive attack that it can throw down at the cost of its tanking stance (which also happens to afford it most of the improved performance on its combo attacks). Honestly, if you wanted to look at *any* of the abilities as broken, it should likely be Riposte, which is a 200 potency off-GCD attack that would proc pretty often given the parry buffs I gave Mystic Knight.

[Exstal]

He may or may not have trolled you, Kitru.

You know how it works, complete ignorance = trolling.

[Masenken]

You may be safer assuming the stats are static, and then work within those rules assuming that any class modifications will come via armor. Rdm would presumably be a str/int or mnd class, depending on if it's more white or black magic focused... or maybe the armor will you give you the choice is stacking int or mnd. Then there's your personal stat distribution.

[Duelle]

You may be safer assuming the stats are static, and then work within those rules assuming that any class modifications will come via armor. Rdm would presumably be a str/int or mnd class, depending on if it's more white or black magic focused... or maybe the armor will you give you the choice is stacking int or mnd. Then there's your personal stat distribution.

Spreading stats all over the place waters down class potential as well as performance. There's a reason hybrids of a particular role get pushed towards one main stat instead of being split between two or more.

[PSxpert2011]

RDM as tank(or magic based tank?) hmm...

I would rather see RDM as a range DD(dps) that anything else

Another tank would upset the balance.

Musketeer/RDM is more like a fencer or range class

I see it more of a dex,piety, int,mind, type.

What we can use more of is stat boost. Haste! Reflect! Refresh!;P

[Gandora]

Maybe that's because you're completely and utterly clueless.

This one made my day, especialy because it came from you.

Do you think unpacking wall of bs and failogic on a forum is making you look smart? I have never seen so much idotie in my life, and with the wall of text you write there is enough to print a 2013 Quid of stupidity..