Market Boards need to work like FFXI AH

[MistressAthena]

But I do, as the very next sentence of my quote explains how its already better then FF11, which I think some dont know this was the first FF online, launched back in 1812 or something and its extremely old and outdated. Also none of its mechanics having any real relevance. So FF11's system was trumped by FF14, 1.0,'s original system. Bazaar and market wards, vastly superior to auction housing.

#1 Get off your high horse. Your not that special, nor are you that smart as you try to make yourself out to be. You are a person, nobody special. So stop acting like your the King of England.

So basically it doesn't work simply because its out dated? That's a lot of fail logic right there chief. I don't blame you though society kinda derps your brain into believing that just because its old its "out dated" and no longer worthy. Which is anything from the truth.

You also Did -NOT- explain why its better, what you did was blow alot of smoke of what you do to interact with the market system, and proclaim that's why its better.. Again, completely and utterly failed to bring anything proper to the discussion. You didn't compare, you didn't explain why A won't work because of B. You simply stated "This is what I do" and then said "So that's why its perfect". Which is totally illogical again.

After sifting through terribly fail passive aggressive insults of me and my 'illogical point', I find you basically just go on to strengthen said point. Therefor, no offense was taken. I can try to explain it to you, as I would a small child or exceptionally intelligent goldfish, but I feel the lessons may fall on deaf ears and need to be repeated much like this post already will reiterate what I already stated. I'll try once more though, so please pay attention.

Refer to #1

That LITERALLY is the ONLY item value, the one at the bottom of the item. But you even decide to make up some makeshift reason why the number would be there... When in fact it is absolutely just the price at which it is sold to a vendor. The very sensible logic you claim to be so full of, dictates not to defer from this irrefutable FACT. If something had a vendor price of 78gil, if I listed it on the market at 77, I would be losing gil. Set it to 85 and im seeking a higher profit for the item. You made the mistake of trying to determine "value", when what you spoke of was 'worth'. Worth is what someone WILL pay for something, not its value.

Wow you said something right, but unfortunately you fail to understand why this market system fails in that exact logical thing you said. Ironic isn't it? So let me see if I can teach you something as I would a small child. I'll just be repeating myself however, because I actually literally explained this in the original post. But here we go. (FYI you also contradicted yourself by saying the items value is the bottom number, then saying the items value is what someone will pay for it. That sir is a contradiction).

You are right that an items value is what someone will pay for it.. however.. That doesn't mean on the flip side, that an items value is how LOW someone will pay for it. Nor is the items "true" value how much that item is being under cut. Can we agree with this point? I sure hope so, because if you can't your a lost cause already. But lets assume you can.

How the market is setup now is that the items value is essentially how many people are undercutting it, not how much someone will pay for it. This is common sense, and is more than obvious to anyone who stops and thinks for a second, because the dropping of prices is -NOT- happening because nobody will buy it at a higher price, its happening only to sell it faster..

Now there's something you need to understand about game development. They put ceilings and floors on prices for certain things, sometimes more than others, but this is a guide line to assist in helping to keep prices balanced, but still player driven. The "Ceiling" of an item is how much an NPC is selling it for. -MANY- equipment, gear, accessories, even mats can be bought at an NPC. (But not all, these are considered "rare" and will follow the guidelines of prices set by the rest). That is the cieling, as trying to sell things higher than that, probably won't net you anything unless the player doesn't know to buy it cheaper at the NPC. The "Floor" price, is how much an NPC will buy it for.

Here's an important part, listening closely? None of these are the items "true" value as you tried to state earlier. Got that? I'm assuming no, so I'll explain a bit further. The "Ceiling" price is a slightly inflated price, generally it goes for a bit more than its actually "worth". However, not all the time either, again sometimes game developers put it right at the "fair" amount. However, again the true value is how much someone will pay for it right? So essentially the Ceiling/Floor is not the true value as we stated.

So whats wrong currently? Ultimately the game dishes out so much crap left and right to players the market is having an impossibly hard time balancing out, because everyone and their grandmother has 5 sets of everything and are trying to sell it. That's problem #1. Problem #2 is the way the market is setup currently, allowing, and even forcing players to drop prices more and more and more because other people are just wanting to sell quickly.

This is an issue as its not fair to gatherers, or crafters to constantly be under cut after spending several days gathering the mats, and then creating the items, only to have it under cut by 300%. It's not balanced, or fair to either adventurers or crafters or gatherers.

And yes, I do think a level 50 item is worth 100, if the Value is marked at 100. Especially considering the HQ version would make it all but vendor trash. Alas most items have vendor equivalents, therefor their worth is not based off of their value, but their buy cost. With those, you now have a literal value. To sell to a vendor is 54, to buy from a vendor is 332. The market is clearly inbetween 54-332. Of course there are even exceptions to this, as maybe some may not know of all the items purchased from vendors. So a 54-332 item, may just sell for 500! Welcome to an auction house system, where your worth certainly will not always be someone elses value.

Sorry, I think I covered this above so I'll skip it. If you are wondering where, please re read.

As i also, seemingly, explained... A harvester may have a higher worth in their mind, that does not align with the items value.

That's an assumption and has nothing to do with our discussion.

Stop! We are going to take a short break, so none of this logic becomes a confusing thought that someone might misconstrue as debatable. Okay, ready? Here we go.. Say you harvest Cobalt, you have it down were you get 10 an hour, but you can make 20k an hour farming some dungeon or item. So you set your mind to assume these cobalt re worth 2k each. This is wrong, as it is not taking into account what the worth is. If I buy them at 20 per, why would I ever be crazy enough to pay 2k??

The worth is how much people will pay for it, as we both agreed above. however I already again... went over this above. so I'll skip it again.. oh and FYI.. If that guy thinks its worth that, then its his fault when it doesn't sell.

Again your problem is more complaint then a broken system. You are failing to use it right or over valuing your items. Thats it, thats the bottom line, there is no wiggle room left for personal interpretation. All of which I did explain.

I'm valueing my items based off of the Cieling/Floor the game developers put in, coupled by what players will pay for it. You however Ironically, are doing exactly what your blaming me for, except backwards. Your putting the worth of items much to low, and think just because someone is undercutting that's the items "new" price. It shouldn't be this way. The price should be what -most- people are willing to pay for, not what price the current undercutter is currently at.

To you. Of course it doesnt make any sense to you, because you see red right now. You are upset, confused, and frustrated with a market system in which you are failing to find your rhythm with. That sucks and im sorry, but alas it does not mean it needs to be changed into some weird system that would do worse what you primarily complain of. Someone listing an item at 1000 and getting 5k? Huh.. It will never happen buddy and frankly its truly the only part of this conversation that is "illogical" and without a single penny's worth of sense. Face that courageously, then we can continue a discussion instead of simply a lecture where I educate you on the semantics of the economy system. As I stated (funny how many times ive had to say that, hopefully you take the time to read this one, so as to avoid it in the future) there are other methods then undercutting, which I personally have had great success on. Especially 2 weeks ago, when materia was confusing to many people. I also find markets that not many people list in and I make crazy profit from, almost a shameful amount of profit. "Nobody will buy it!", yes they will. If its a stackable item, I list 2 at the same price (check original post where I expl.. nm) as his 1. Mine sell.

You assumed I'm having issues and I don't understand. I do. But the system is highly flawed, and has serious issues. Plain and simple. I get it, but its wrong. so again, here you go to pointing at what you do with the market and proclaiming that its right, simply because you can sell something. Well Bravo.. but unfortunately doesn't prove anything. As you again, fail to complete any form of thought here other than "I can sell something so it must work!" Just because you can sell something doesn't mean its working right.

You also obviously don't understand the FFXI system as you pointed out the 1000 and getting 5k example. Again, please go back and re read. Also FYI the FFXI AH system worked perfectly that way and kept prices fair, balanced, yet still fluctuating for 11+ years. So your "It wont happen buddy" comment is null and void. I'm sorry.

Is this really difficult or so logically profound to you that it blurs into gibberish? I suggest reading it a few times, as the next tips wont be so specific, least im forced to charge you a fee. I truly thought many of these things were common sense, realizing with this thread thats not the case.

Unfortunately it does seem very difficult for you to understand. Simply because your speaking gibberish doesn't mean I don't understand exactly what your trying to say, but again, I went over it pretty clear above, and I hope its helped you understand the flaws and holes in your logic.

And being that I would thrive in ANY economic system, market-auction-wards-RL, I probably will be billing you a fee for my pointers as it took me a good 15 minutes to type this out. Keep a heads up on your PMs for the invoice, youre welcome, good luck, and have fun!

I'm sure you would, and so would I, however I'm still logical and intelligent enough to be able to see the flaws and cons of a system, if when it has it. Just because its working doesn't mean its working as well as it should or could. I'll be happy to see that bill, then laugh, and charge you back double for having to repeat the same things to you

Also Refer back to #1. ~.-

[MistressAthena]

I highly doubt SE would consider a rework of the AH system currently in place but I think if they added an item history menu to the retainers it would be extremely helpful. The menu could display like the marketplace but only show the sales history of all items listed so you don't have to do the back and forth between marketplace and retainer. I'm not real fond of having to write down all the items in my inventory I want to sell, check the history on the marketplace, then go to my retainer and start listing the items for sale.

You realize there is a button while putting stuff up on your retainer to check the history right? You don't have to write anything down.

[Scott]

Yeah this undercutting is pretty horrible. As soon as I put something on its undercut in a matter of time.
Gathering Classes are useless right now.

[Begeta]

You realize there is a button while putting stuff up on your retainer to check the history right? You don't have to write anything down.

I did not. I'll check that out tonight after work. Thanks.

[EvanderStoneguard]

This is an issue as its not fair to gatherers, or crafters to constantly be under cut after spending several days gathering the mats, and then creating the items, only to have it under cut by 300%. It's not balanced, or fair to either adventurers or crafters or gatherers.

The first one you are asking and implying that what fair is, is the price you would like to sell. Just because you spent a certain amount of time to gather and craft a item it should be marketed at the price you want, while the person who listed under you probably gather and crafted and set the price she/he wants. This scenario to me is not unfair, it's free market economics. The other person values their time less than yours but doesn't make it unfair or wrong. A buyer could easily say you marked yours up by 300%.

Your second comment I have issue with because it requires both buyers and sellers to set prices not just sellers. If sellers set prices then its a monopoly.

[EvanderStoneguard]

I didn't like FFXI AH systems because you can easily manipulate the system to benefit sellers and it was easier for RMT to control since you only have a certain history to view. A RMT can buy majority of an item re-list them use other characters to buy them to refresh a new "normal price" or not just RMT but players who play the market of the AH. I done it before in WOW. I set prices for all enchanting materials during the week and I would buy all under cutters and just resell them with different mules to create a false systems for an item.

I think as more people stop playing the game the market board will level out but will still have under cutters. If a player wants money fast he will undercut hoping someone will buy his/her GREAT DEAL.

Plus I personally don't have time like FFXI days where I can start bidding at 100 and move up little by little. I just don't have thirty minutes try to get a deal if there is one to be had.

[IveraIvalice]

i agree with needing something done about this. the AH in FFXI worked great and i would happily go to that, im getting tired of all the undercutting. but im also getting tired of this hate in here.
im not gonna lie, OP is kinda losing me with all the little insults in her response posts so im just gonna post this before i become biased.
i agree with what the OP is saying, i like the current way the game is set up with retainers an markets but if its just like this undercutting constantly then i would rather have the blind AH back from FFXI.
im not gonna start bringing in talk of monopoly, value, worth, or anything like that, and im not gonna make people feel like a stupid 5 year old. i dont care what the devs do, but something needs to be fixed and i know FFXI AH works, so im siding with that.

[storied_hero]

I've been reading a bunch of these threads and I really don't understand what people are complaining about. If you don't like undercutting then market pvp is not for you.

[Bizzybeast]

#1 Get off your high horse. Your not that special, nor are you that smart as you try to make yourself out to be. You are a person, nobody special. So stop acting like your the King of England.

You're. So for instance it would go something like this- "You're not as smart as you think you are!". Your is possessive, like the king of england is YOUR king and I have a president. Thank you very much for your humble comments though. It is better I climb off my high horse, instead of being thrown off it like i'm forcing you to do.

So basically it doesn't work simply because its out dated? That's a lot of fail logic right there chief. I don't blame you though society kinda derps your brain into believing that just because its old its "out dated" and no longer worthy. Which is anything from the truth.

Basically, yes. The system was from the early 2000s, it had no real market testing and was a great idea on paper. But then, of course, that crusty old piece of paper was crumpled up and thrown away. People wrote scripts to check for low gil items and most people were frustrated with the system. If I think Bronze Ingots are worth 200 per and I sit there trying 100-300, to not find any.. Ive wasted massive amounts of time and effort. Were undercutters could potentially get rich, instead of having to take a hit. Its a little mind boggling you don't see how this old tired system would be worse for what you complain hardest about.

And do me a favor, pretty please, so we don't have anymore embarrassing moments where I inform you of grossly misspelled words tied in with way off the mark insults. Try not to knock my intellect so pathetically hard and simply offer your argument. It will make your opinion seem more valid and less fallacy.

You also Did -NOT- explain why its better, what you did was blow alot of smoke of what you do to interact with the market system, and proclaim that's why its better.. Again, completely and utterly failed to bring anything proper to the discussion. You didn't compare, you didn't explain why A won't work because of B. You simply stated "This is what I do" and then said "So that's why its perfect". Which is totally illogical again.

Another thing you shouldn't do is try to make up what someone said or is saying. Like I could go; "I can't make lots of gil because this fair system where im held accountable for more inflated prices!". That wouldnt be a very fair way to describe your argument now would it?

Alas you're right, i did not go into vast detail explaining why I consider Market Wards and Bazaar, to be the perfect system. Thats because, much like the old crusty ff11 system, its not longer how things are.

Bazaars allowed for smart business players to do things like opening their Ingot shop, in front of the BSM/ARM guild. You have lumber? Open your Bazaar by grindania's carpentry guild! You can use intelligence to enhance your sales in a system like that. Stand by the leve guy, with leve hand in items! Similar with market wards, they had specific wards with lax taxes for goods sold in the proper ward. MW where pretty time consuming though, but you could always find what you needed!

As for the current system, I dont much like it and what you heard me say was how im simply rolling with the punches. If it cost 10gil to make something, I dont need 5,000 gil for it to make a profit. Obviously FF11 made people feel a little arrogant regarding how important their goods were. This system currently only rewards those with the skill to excel at crafting, as I stated. If you have the 10 gil item up for 5,000gil, it costs me 25gil to HQ it and I sell it at 6,000 gil. Almost everytime I will sell it and you will not.

It humbles people.

Wow you said something right, but unfortunately you fail to understand why this market system fails in that exact logical thing you said. Ironic isn't it? So let me see if I can teach you something as I would a small child. I'll just be repeating myself however, because I actually literally explained this in the original post. But here we go. (FYI you also contradicted yourself by saying the items value is the bottom number, then saying the items value is what someone will pay for it. That sir is a contradiction).

Again let us get this straight, the current market system does not fail. You fail AT it. While you have a 3 page thread with maybe 8 people who are disgruntled with it, thousands upon 10s of thousands of people are doing just fine at it. I thought I should drop that bomb on you before I wade through your arrogant mockery. I probably did accidentally mingle value and worth, but its bound to happen when trying to explain the difference in the two. Value is vendor sell and vendor buy. Worth is what someone wants to pay for it.

You are right

Ughh, finally you say something sensible.

that an items value is what someone will pay for it.. however.. That doesn't mean on the flip side, that an items value is how LOW someone will pay for it. Nor is the items "true" value how much that item is being under cut. Can we agree with this point? I sure hope so, because if you can't your a lost cause already. But lets assume you can.

No we can't agree on it as it doesn't make much sense. If I think an item is worth 500gil and there is one listed for 400 and 600. The 400 is a bargain and the 600 is a deperation buy. The value isn't negotiable, only its worth is. Only unsellable items are left ONLY to be determined by their worth.

For instance lets say Iron Sword costs 2,000 gil from the vendor. You, somehow, buy the mats and make it for a cost of 2,200. Then, of course, list it at 3,000. Anyone who knows it has a vendor version will not buy your over-priced version. You messed up and put too high of a worth on the materials.

How the market is setup now is that the items value is essentially how many people are undercutting it, not how much someone will pay for it. This is common sense, and is more than obvious to anyone who stops and thinks for a second, because the dropping of prices is -NOT- happening because nobody will buy it at a higher price, its happening only to sell it faster..

My point, if you slowed down to let its profound logic wash over you, is that cheaper materials, equals cheaper goods. Yes its happening to sell it faster and do you know why? Because when you thought to yourself "Ima be a miner and get super rich!" there were tens of thousands of people on your server who had the same exact idea.

Now when you reach the END of harvesting, you will find items you can only get a certain amount of in a certain amount of time. Work hard enough, you can acquire HQ versions and these will sell very well. Alas the market will be flooded with most everything else, which will lower the worth of many items. This is working as intended, supply and demand.

Now there's something you need to understand about game development.

Let me stop you right there, before you get in over your head. I am affiliated with several indie development companies, as my business is social network marketing, PR, and advertising. As such, ive actually been involved in development of several cell phone games/apps. Even did work for the break out Xbox Arcade hit- State Of Decay. So please tread carefully, with assumptions in a field I assume your accomplishments pale in comparison in.

They put ceilings and floors on prices for certain things, sometimes more than others, but this is a guide line to assist in helping to keep prices balanced, but still player driven. The "Ceiling" of an item is how much an NPC is selling it for. -MANY- equipment, gear, accessories, even mats can be bought at an NPC. (But not all, these are considered "rare" and will follow the guidelines of prices set by the rest). That is the cieling, as trying to sell things higher than that, probably won't net you anything unless the player doesn't know to buy it cheaper at the NPC. The "Floor" price, is how much an NPC will buy it for.

Okay, so you basically just summarized what I already tediously explained as an item's "value". I guess rewording it was necessary, but regardless im listening.

Here's an important part, listening closely? None of these are the items "true" value as you tried to state earlier. Got that? I'm assuming no, so I'll explain a bit further. The "Ceiling" price is a slightly inflated price, generally it goes for a bit more than its actually "worth". However, not all the time either, again sometimes game developers put it right at the "fair" amount. However, again the true value is how much someone will pay for it right? So essentially the Ceiling/Floor is not the true value as we stated.

So what you're saying is my fact based explanation was wrong and you wanted to correct me with a system that isn't sound or real, changes from server to server, and is better left simply saying its the worth that the individual would be willing to pay. I've sold items worth 5gil, from a vendor 2 feet from the market board, for 100gil. I felt bad though and it was early on.

What you describe is tricking new players or selling to lazy rich people, who would pay extra gil to not have to run to the vendor. But this is not a consistent and therefor cannot be used as a foundation for an argument. There is a value to most items, set by its vendor buy/sell. Then there is a worth, what people will pay for it. The worth, is vastly differing and it seems you're having trouble finding what its WORTH it to you, to sell things at.

Period. Again I implore you don't fight this, as it isn't my opinion, it is quite literally a fact.

So whats wrong currently? Ultimately the game dishes out so much crap left and right to players the market is having an impossibly hard time balancing out, because everyone and their grandmother has 5 sets of everything and are trying to sell it. That's problem #1. Problem #2 is the way the market is setup currently, allowing, and even forcing players to drop prices more and more and more because other people are just wanting to sell quickly.

I disagree, I think the problem is that the game offers way too much gear reward, which cuts the demand for crafted items. As I keep saying, I personally am doing great by sticking to a HQ standard. If I make something RQ, I vendor it and try again. So people start to see that when they have a quest reward for a Mythril Chest or 4k gil, I have a Mythril Chest HQ at 4k. I remove their need to consider the better choice.

As for the price dropping, its an important step in a growing game economy. For instance, being a crafting pioneer, I remember paying 20k for spruce lumber, 5k for darksteel ore, and other outrageously high prices. So, in turn I set my item's prices higher. As I warned many miners/botanists, there will be a day where they will have vast competition and will be glad to sell a dozen for that price. But some didnt listen and now are dampening the market board with their tears.

The smart ones sell people like me, a lot of their ore/lumber at around the same fair price we started at. HQ items rarely lose much worth, as their value is usually the same as their RQ counterparts.

This is an issue as its not fair to gatherers, or crafters to constantly be under cut after spending several days gathering the mats, and then creating the items, only to have it under cut by 300%. It's not balanced, or fair to either adventurers or crafters or gatherers.

You're wrong there, it is extremely fair to adventurers. They get fair deals on gear. Same for crafters, buying cheap mats can only help a crafter. As for gatherers, they still have good options for making gil, just spamming away at RQ mythril isnt going to do the trick. Shoot for HQ and find your good profits. Too many gatherers got greedy early on due to supply and demand, over valuing their time spent harvesting materials. Now they are left to face the facts that trying to sell so high, lost them a lot of business.

Again that isnt everyone though, most gatherers who started early, have made more gil then the crafters. Haha, I guess thats the "fair" way it should work, huh!

That's an assumption and has nothing to do with our discussion.

It absolutely does, you keep throwing around these fake numbers and exaggerated meanings on value/worth. As a crafter, who doesnt gather, I very much run into this. One guy pretty much curses me out for offering what I find something to be worth, another delightfully sells all he has to me, making hundreds of thousands of gil in some cases. The other guy ends up making threads like these.

The worth is how much people will pay for it, as we both agreed above. however I already again... went over this above. so I'll skip it again.. oh and FYI.. If that guy thinks its worth that, then its his fault when it doesn't sell.

How does one sell or not sell a hypothetical? You make those assumptions way too often, only to end up countering with "NO ASSUMPTIONS!" like you did above. My whole point is "Then its their fault for when it doesnt sell!". Someone cuts you? Cut them back, deeper, or find a constant source to sell to. Its so much easier then you think it is.

I'm valueing my items based off of the Cieling/Floor the game developers put in, coupled by what players will pay for it. You however Ironically, are doing exactly what your blaming me for, except backwards. Your putting the worth of items much to low, and think just because someone is undercutting that's the items "new" price. It shouldn't be this way. The price should be what -most- people are willing to pay for, not what price the current undercutter is currently at.

So the game's value, coupled by the player's worth. Got it.. Got it when I said it, actually.

I don't think you understand economics very well. You're saying that the "worth" is a set price, this is not correct. The worth, again, is the price players are willing to pay. Most people will pay nearly anything for what they need. The undercutters keep the market board honest and are more important to its health then those trying to be greedy. As a buyer, I want to pay 1 gil, if there is 1 listed at 100 gil, I will buy it. If there are 100 listed, from 10-100gil, I will buy as many as I need starting at the 10. Unless its a stack at 10, and I need 5. 5 are listed at 25. I bought the 5!

Uh oh, I just "overpaid" and didnt buy the lowest costing item. Can you believe that?

You assumed I'm having issues and I don't understand. I do. But the system is highly flawed, and has serious issues. Plain and simple. I get it, but its wrong. so again, here you go to pointing at what you do with the market and proclaiming that its right, simply because you can sell something. Well Bravo.. but unfortunately doesn't prove anything. As you again, fail to complete any form of thought here other than "I can sell something so it must work!" Just because you can sell something doesn't mean its working right.

You try to make the current system seem impossible. Poor gatherer, poor crafter, poor everyone! What my personally experience examples do, is let you know that its not true that the system is completely broken. I would prefer the MarketWard/Bazaar system, I find that to be perfect, but ff11's system would never work and completely ruin the current system. Buy orders, for instance, would do wonders to help this system flourish.

There are plenty of good ideas that need to be discussed. Smashing in an old system that didn't even work well back then, is certainly not the answer.

You also obviously don't understand the FFXI system as you pointed out the 1000 and getting 5k example. Again, please go back and re read. Also FYI the FFXI AH system worked perfectly that way and kept prices fair, balanced, yet still fluctuating for 11+ years. So your "It wont happen buddy" comment is null and void. I'm sorry.

In FF11 if I listed an item at 2gil and you bid 5000, if my item was the lowest you would buy it at 5000. This did not work and would never in this day an age. 'Worked perfectly', seems like a bit of a stretch, considering the game got shut down for a new one, with a new system. Then even that system got changed again. This means they werent so perfect and honestly neither is this one.

What wont happen buddy, is the old crusty bad system from FF11, coming into this game. Arguing otherwise is null and void. Im sorry.

Unfortunately it does seem very difficult for you to understand. Simply because your speaking gibberish doesn't mean I don't understand exactly what your trying to say, but again, I went over it pretty clear above, and I hope its helped you understand the flaws and holes in your logic.

You're. So it would go like this- "I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say.". I think its very important you understand this is not an error or a typo, when you do it every single time. This may help explain why I am on such a high horse, when you resort to assuming the things i'm saying aren't making any sense, but yours are rich with logic and intellect.

I've punched enough holes in your argument that it no longer floats. Yet I am simply the gatekeeper, your 'idea' of implementing old failed systems cant even get passed me without being torn to shreds. I couldn't imagine being dull enough to be hopeful it would get implemented. No offense of course.

I'm sure you would, and so would I, however I'm still logical and intelligent enough to be able to see the flaws and cons of a system, if when it has it. Just because its working doesn't mean its working as well as it should or could. I'll be happy to see that bill, then laugh, and charge you back double for having to repeat the same things to you

I realize I annoyed you with the way I posted and this was done on purpose. You seemed to be a little arrogant in a few posts here, so I aimed to kick you off the pedestal. Therefor I get and can ignore the blatant "Im rubber your glue" retorts you've littered throughout your replies. As they were basically just rehashed versions of what I said, along with most of your post (Like its not value/worth, its ceiling/floor, lol come on), so im incapable of feeling offended by it. You can continue to try though, if you feel so inclined.

The one thing we agree on is the current system isn't perfect. Its about time to stop squabbling and get back to the drawing board to find real repairs for the system.

[EvanderStoneguard]

Alas the market will be flooded with most everything else, which will lower the worth of many items. This is working as intended, supply and demand.

QFT

I for one agree with Bizzybeast with the logic behind this thread.