Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[Savish]

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 / .9 = 424.31
PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 = 425.29

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 / .9 = 472.54

So using your math for a Dragoon
We don't use Jumps they are a DPS loss due to long animations
150+200+300
180+220+160 and a 20 potency DOT (we will assume 1 tick every 2.5 secs)
that is 205 Potency per GCD
1230 over 15 Secs
Blood for Blood is roughly a 7.5% damage increase
Disembowel is another 11.11%
(205 * 1.075 + 83.33 * 1.075) * (1/.9) = 344.39 Potency

The formulas you use are totally useless in calculating actual in-game damage so go ahead and get some actually IN-GAME parses and then come on back if you can't do that then just go away.

[TyrantPoke]

do you realize that paladin can tank coil with ilvl 70 gear? paladin doesn't need to wait for CT

Worst first (of coil 1-4) was mostly ilvl 55-60 gear, not even darklight...just the AK stuff. 2x paladin 2x scholar 3x bard don't know who the last guy was. I haven't checked if anyone killed 5? Probably so though.

[Kitru]

So using your math for a Dragoon

Assuming the numbers on the wiki are correct (don't have a DRG, so I can't check in game nor do I claim perfect knowledge of the DRG rotation)...

You're using a horribly ineffective rotation: the Chaos Thrust combo should only be used once every 30 seconds. You're also forgetting about the 10% increase in damage from Heavy Thrust, not to mention Phlebotomize (290 potency every 18 seconds which is pretty damned good; clip one tick off and you get 270).

Based upon that knowledge, your rotation should be as follows: Heavy Thrust(170)>Chaos Thrust(180>220>360)>Full Thrust(150>200>300)>Heavy Thrust(170)>Full Thrust(150>200>300)>Full Thrust(150>200>300)

Multipliers would be 1.1 for Heavy Thrust, 1/.9 for Disembowel, and 1.075 for Blood for Blood. Furthermore, you get one auto-crit from Life Surge every minute, which is once every 2 GCDs. That's a 50% damage on one attack every other run, so, use it on a Full Thrust and you get an extra 150 potency.

That's 3200 over 14 GCDs, for 228.57 from abilities per GCD.

You could throw in a Power Surge + Jump every 90 seconds for an extra 300 potency hit, but that's only an extra 1.98 potency per GCD, assuming it doesn't impact anything else, which you said it did so I won't bother.

Therefore the formula would be: (228.57 + 83.33) * 1.1 * 1.075 / .9 = 409.80.

I'm not even sure that's an optimized rotation, since Phlebotomize hits for 290 potency potentially every 8 GCDs or so, which, if used, would bolster that by a fair bit more (~7.68 additional baseline potency), nor do am I sure that it's actually including every buff available.

Furthermore, stat allocations for DPS and tanks are different. DPS classes get more DPS stats as they level. Tank gear has Parry and Accuracy on it with more Vit. DPS gear has Acc and Determination with lower Vit allowing for a more stats to be distributed to DPS stats. A DRG is going to get more out of the same potency than a WAR or PLD is so, even if a PLD or WAR has more potency by default, that potency is going to end up providing less real DPS.

Hell, I'm not even a DRG and I came up with a better rotation than you. You may want to actually learn your class a bit better before you start trying to tell me I don't know what I'm doing.

[Ruminate]

So using your math for a Dragoon
We don't use Jumps they are a DPS loss due to long animations
150+200+300
180+220+160 and a 20 potency DOT (we will assume 1 tick every 2.5 secs)
that is 205 Potency per GCD
1230 over 15 Secs
Blood for Blood is roughly a 7.5% damage increase
Disembowel is another 11.11%
(205 * 1.075 + 83.33 * 1.075) * (1/.9) = 344.39 Potency

The formulas you use are totally useless in calculating actual in-game damage so go ahead and get some actually IN-GAME parses and then come on back if you can't do that then just go away.

Lets ignore the fact that your DRG rotation is horrendous (no HT), and the fact that despite its long 1.5s animation, Jump is still a DPS increase because its off the GCD.

If you dump all of your bonus attributes into strength and wear strength accessories and meld offensive stats on tanking gear, the PLD and WAR can easily hold boss aggro without using their enmity attacks at all.

The DPS capabilities of the PLD and WAR are criminally undervalued by the community. I suspect it will take some time before people begin to realize just how good PLD and WAR DPS really is when outside of their tanking stance. (there have already been a few cases where PLDs tank Amdapor Keep in Sword Oath and DPS equipment. These groups kill Demon Wall before it even gets to summon the adds)

[Takamorisan]

enjoying the discussion but does SE read this or we are just the baka 外人 forums?

[Savish]

Furthermore, stat allocations for DPS and tanks are different. DPS classes get more DPS stats as they level. Tank gear has Parry and Accuracy on it with more Vit. DPS gear has Acc and Determination with lower Vit allowing for a more stats to be distributed to DPS stats. A DRG is going to get more out of the same potency than a WAR or PLD is so, even if a PLD or WAR has more potency by default, that potency is going to end up providing less real DPS.

Fracture is supposedly a DPS increase why was that left out?
Why did you choose to ignore crit chance?
Do paladin and warrior have identical base stats?

I don't play a dragoon and I didn't bother to go look for an optimal rotation because the point I was try to prove was you are only listing potency and ignoring all the DPS stats assuming that paladin and warrior are identical in those areas, makes you a bit hypocritical bringing that stuff up now when you chose to ignore it previously.

[Kiteless]

Fracture has a tendency to get left out because it doesn't provide much in the way of enmity, and doesn't provide any interesting side effects either. Maim increases overall damage output, and with it, enmity output.

Storm's Eye increases overall damage output for anyone that does slashing damage, and specifically increases the damage output of the WAR, leading to increased enmity. Skull Sunder and Butcher's Block provide massive amounts of enmity. Fracture just does slightly more/slightly less (depends on how much the server's internal clock is favouring you at the time) damage than a single Butcher's block over time.

The extra damage provided by fitting Fracture into your rotation isn't going to have a spectacular, possibly not even a noticeable effect on much of anything, and there are other, more important things that need to be accomplished with other skills. If you're leading in Enmity by a considerable amount and are already fully set for buffs/debuffs, Fracture can help a little bit, but it's certainly nothing to focus on.

[Telepathic]

Obviously WAR is behind PLD's in tanking. But I don't think we can get a truly accurate discussion until we have more accurate tools. We need actual parses with accurate self healing totals and HPS data. XIVApp doesn't parse absorbs, so no IB, Bloodbath, Path, or Mercy stroke. It only lists Second wind and Trill. FFXIVLogrep2 doesn't list healing.

There is threshold where our self heals can:

Make it OK to use our wrath stacks
Make our 15% healing bonus = PLD 20% damage mitigation
Make up for our lack of shields
Make up for "most" of PLD CD's

But until we get better parses we don't know how far we are from those thresholds. Whats the max we can heal for in a flawless dummy parse? How much are we healing for in a good dungeon run? What percentage of the damage we receive in a boss fight like THM can we absorb and how does it compare to the healers output?

[Kitru]

Fracture is supposedly a DPS increase why was that left out?

I included it in there for WAR but not for PLD mainly because it's not something that automatically gets used. It could be folded in, but it's not a default capability and is substantially worse for a PLD than a WAR (since a WAR gets the extra 80 potency out of it).

Why did you choose to ignore crit chance?

Because there isn't an appreciable difference in critical hit rate between a WAR and a PLD when they're not in their tank stances (which are the numbers you quoted).

Do paladin and warrior have identical base stats?

No, but it's close enough that the stat disparities don't make much of a difference given the fact that they use effectively identical gear and get the same bonus stats from traits. The difference between a WAR and a PLD at level 50 is 10 Str, which is next to nothing.

I don't play a dragoon and I didn't bother to go look for an optimal rotation because the point I was try to prove was you are only listing potency and ignoring all the DPS stats assuming that paladin and warrior are identical in those areas, makes you a bit hypocritical bringing that stuff up now when you chose to ignore it previously.

If you were trying to prove that I was ignoring everything except for potency, you'd did a terrible job of it. All you did was come up with a terrible rotation, throw out some modifiers, and point out that you got lower numbers on a DRG than I got on a WAR or PLD. What it looked like you were doing was saying that theory is completely stupid to bring up and that only practical application need be looked into. Of course, the fact that you completely screwed up your attempt to duplicate the formulation and determination of average potency means that you made your point even *less*.

If you want to try and call me on something that I'm supposedly ignoring that will completely and utterly render the math that I'm doing irrelevant, it might behoove you to actually check it out first. The difference between a PLD and a WAR as far as stats are concerned is miniscule. If you checked it out, you'd know, rather than attempting to undermine what is actually pretty valid comparison based upon your own ignorance and inability to actually understand basic concepts of stat differentiation and gearing. Hell, you were the one that tried to tell me that weapon speed actually affected special ability damage, did the absolute *worst* data collection possible, and ended up being *completely and utterly wrong*.

Before you tell me that I'm doing something wrong, check to see if you're not the one doing it completely and utterly wrong because, as has been evidenced multiple times thus far, I tend to be right and you always end up being wrong.

[Illya]

enjoying the discussion but does SE read this or we are just the baka 外人 forums?

I'm pretty sure the JP players have the same complaints we do. Class balance in MMOs transcends language and culture after all.