Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[Savish]

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 / .9 = 424.31
PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 = 425.29

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 / .9 = 472.54

So using your math for a Dragoon
We don't use Jumps they are a DPS loss due to long animations
150+200+300
180+220+160 and a 20 potency DOT (we will assume 1 tick every 2.5 secs)
that is 205 Potency per GCD
1230 over 15 Secs
Blood for Blood is roughly a 7.5% damage increase
Disembowel is another 11.11%
(205 * 1.075 + 83.33 * 1.075) * (1/.9) = 344.39 Potency

The formulas you use are totally useless in calculating actual in-game damage so go ahead and get some actually IN-GAME parses and then come on back if you can't do that then just go away.

[Kitru]

So using your math for a Dragoon

Assuming the numbers on the wiki are correct (don't have a DRG, so I can't check in game nor do I claim perfect knowledge of the DRG rotation)...

You're using a horribly ineffective rotation: the Chaos Thrust combo should only be used once every 30 seconds. You're also forgetting about the 10% increase in damage from Heavy Thrust, not to mention Phlebotomize (290 potency every 18 seconds which is pretty damned good; clip one tick off and you get 270).

Based upon that knowledge, your rotation should be as follows: Heavy Thrust(170)>Chaos Thrust(180>220>360)>Full Thrust(150>200>300)>Heavy Thrust(170)>Full Thrust(150>200>300)>Full Thrust(150>200>300)

Multipliers would be 1.1 for Heavy Thrust, 1/.9 for Disembowel, and 1.075 for Blood for Blood. Furthermore, you get one auto-crit from Life Surge every minute, which is once every 2 GCDs. That's a 50% damage on one attack every other run, so, use it on a Full Thrust and you get an extra 150 potency.

That's 3200 over 14 GCDs, for 228.57 from abilities per GCD.

You could throw in a Power Surge + Jump every 90 seconds for an extra 300 potency hit, but that's only an extra 1.98 potency per GCD, assuming it doesn't impact anything else, which you said it did so I won't bother.

Therefore the formula would be: (228.57 + 83.33) * 1.1 * 1.075 / .9 = 409.80.

I'm not even sure that's an optimized rotation, since Phlebotomize hits for 290 potency potentially every 8 GCDs or so, which, if used, would bolster that by a fair bit more (~7.68 additional baseline potency), nor do am I sure that it's actually including every buff available.

Furthermore, stat allocations for DPS and tanks are different. DPS classes get more DPS stats as they level. Tank gear has Parry and Accuracy on it with more Vit. DPS gear has Acc and Determination with lower Vit allowing for a more stats to be distributed to DPS stats. A DRG is going to get more out of the same potency than a WAR or PLD is so, even if a PLD or WAR has more potency by default, that potency is going to end up providing less real DPS.

Hell, I'm not even a DRG and I came up with a better rotation than you. You may want to actually learn your class a bit better before you start trying to tell me I don't know what I'm doing.

[Savish]

Furthermore, stat allocations for DPS and tanks are different. DPS classes get more DPS stats as they level. Tank gear has Parry and Accuracy on it with more Vit. DPS gear has Acc and Determination with lower Vit allowing for a more stats to be distributed to DPS stats. A DRG is going to get more out of the same potency than a WAR or PLD is so, even if a PLD or WAR has more potency by default, that potency is going to end up providing less real DPS.

Fracture is supposedly a DPS increase why was that left out?
Why did you choose to ignore crit chance?
Do paladin and warrior have identical base stats?

I don't play a dragoon and I didn't bother to go look for an optimal rotation because the point I was try to prove was you are only listing potency and ignoring all the DPS stats assuming that paladin and warrior are identical in those areas, makes you a bit hypocritical bringing that stuff up now when you chose to ignore it previously.

[Kitru]

Fracture is supposedly a DPS increase why was that left out?

I included it in there for WAR but not for PLD mainly because it's not something that automatically gets used. It could be folded in, but it's not a default capability and is substantially worse for a PLD than a WAR (since a WAR gets the extra 80 potency out of it).

Why did you choose to ignore crit chance?

Because there isn't an appreciable difference in critical hit rate between a WAR and a PLD when they're not in their tank stances (which are the numbers you quoted).

Do paladin and warrior have identical base stats?

No, but it's close enough that the stat disparities don't make much of a difference given the fact that they use effectively identical gear and get the same bonus stats from traits. The difference between a WAR and a PLD at level 50 is 10 Str, which is next to nothing.

I don't play a dragoon and I didn't bother to go look for an optimal rotation because the point I was try to prove was you are only listing potency and ignoring all the DPS stats assuming that paladin and warrior are identical in those areas, makes you a bit hypocritical bringing that stuff up now when you chose to ignore it previously.

If you were trying to prove that I was ignoring everything except for potency, you'd did a terrible job of it. All you did was come up with a terrible rotation, throw out some modifiers, and point out that you got lower numbers on a DRG than I got on a WAR or PLD. What it looked like you were doing was saying that theory is completely stupid to bring up and that only practical application need be looked into. Of course, the fact that you completely screwed up your attempt to duplicate the formulation and determination of average potency means that you made your point even *less*.

If you want to try and call me on something that I'm supposedly ignoring that will completely and utterly render the math that I'm doing irrelevant, it might behoove you to actually check it out first. The difference between a PLD and a WAR as far as stats are concerned is miniscule. If you checked it out, you'd know, rather than attempting to undermine what is actually pretty valid comparison based upon your own ignorance and inability to actually understand basic concepts of stat differentiation and gearing. Hell, you were the one that tried to tell me that weapon speed actually affected special ability damage, did the absolute *worst* data collection possible, and ended up being *completely and utterly wrong*.

Before you tell me that I'm doing something wrong, check to see if you're not the one doing it completely and utterly wrong because, as has been evidenced multiple times thus far, I tend to be right and you always end up being wrong.

[Savish]

No, but it's close enough that the stat disparities don't make much of a difference given the fact that they use effectively identical gear and get the same bonus stats from traits. The difference between a WAR and a PLD at level 50 is 10 Str, which is next to nothing.

You either include every single piece of DPS data that includes all DPS stats regardless of how small doesn't matter if its 1 str or 100 str difference it must be included in your calculations to be accurate. That was the point I was trying to make but clearly that is beyond you and where are your in-game parses? afraid that they might not match up with your "math".

So you are wrong you have been wrong and will continue to be wrong until you use 100% of the data required to properly calculate single target DPS.

P.S
Also why no DPS math on multiple target situations or do those just not exist?

[Kitru]

So you are wrong you have been wrong and will continue to be wrong until you use 100% of the data required to properly calculate single target DPS.

Are you seriously saying that I'm wrong and you're right because I didn't do the math to account for a fractional difference in a *single* stat (it's a ~3.33% difference)?

You're just getting pedantic. Hell, you don't even have a character at level 50 in order to have the relevant understanding of what 10 strength actually *does*. As it stands, the only reason you're still hung up on this is that you're butthurt because you've tried to prove me wrong on multiple occasions and have only to have it turn out that I was right all along and that you have no one whit of a clue about what you're doing.

Seriously, sit down, shut up, and let the grown ups continue the discussion since we can actually *do* math.

Also why no DPS math on multiple target situations or do those just not exist?

You're really just fishing with this. Of *course* GLA has effectively null AoE DPS. Of course, as a *tank* class, the DPS dealt isn't important within the confines of their role: threat generation is what's important. Furthermore, when discussing the variable AoE capability of the two classes, you have to further compare the resource consumption of the two: Overpower does damage, has a smaller target area, and costs a metric shitton; Flash is dirt cheap, safe as hell, applies a debuff, and has a much larger target area. The fact that GLA doesn't do any damage with its AoE is countered by all of the other advantages provided by theirs.

You don't bring a tank to deal damage. Anything that a WAR can deal with Overpower is so massively overshadowed by the AoE damage of even a single DPS that you might as well no be dealing *anything*. The entire reason *why* I did the math here was to demonstrate to those people that say that WAR has some kind of massive DPS advantage over PLD that they are explicitly *wrong*. WAR and PLD do effectively the same DPS. There's some variation where a PLD can perform slightly better or worse based upon group composition, but the fact remains that those people are *wrong*. Just like you. Hell, you're so busy trying to prove that I'm wrong that you've lost sight of what is actually being discussed.

[Savish]

Are you seriously saying that I'm wrong and you're right because I didn't do the math to account for a fractional difference in a *single* stat (it's a ~3.33% difference)?

Yeah it does matter because you ignore a % here and another % there and it starts to add up you can't completely ignore stats from your formulas for calculating damage I mean that is pretty basic stuff...

Warriors are an offensive tank they were clearly designed as such it was even stated this was their intention so yeah DPS is relevant according to the developers that includes both single target and AOE.

Not once did I ever claim to be right, only that you are wrong, so you grow up and lose the ego kid.

[Ruminate]

So using your math for a Dragoon
We don't use Jumps they are a DPS loss due to long animations
150+200+300
180+220+160 and a 20 potency DOT (we will assume 1 tick every 2.5 secs)
that is 205 Potency per GCD
1230 over 15 Secs
Blood for Blood is roughly a 7.5% damage increase
Disembowel is another 11.11%
(205 * 1.075 + 83.33 * 1.075) * (1/.9) = 344.39 Potency

The formulas you use are totally useless in calculating actual in-game damage so go ahead and get some actually IN-GAME parses and then come on back if you can't do that then just go away.

Lets ignore the fact that your DRG rotation is horrendous (no HT), and the fact that despite its long 1.5s animation, Jump is still a DPS increase because its off the GCD.

If you dump all of your bonus attributes into strength and wear strength accessories and meld offensive stats on tanking gear, the PLD and WAR can easily hold boss aggro without using their enmity attacks at all.

The DPS capabilities of the PLD and WAR are criminally undervalued by the community. I suspect it will take some time before people begin to realize just how good PLD and WAR DPS really is when outside of their tanking stance. (there have already been a few cases where PLDs tank Amdapor Keep in Sword Oath and DPS equipment. These groups kill Demon Wall before it even gets to summon the adds)