WAR vs PLD HP values and EHP.

[HiirNoivl]

Inner beast isn't but Infuriate is.

If you don't use infuriate you lose a significant amount of healing which puts you WAY behind the 20% damage mitigation, and you're talking about mitigating part of one big hit, while the damage keeps coming after that one hit. It takes at least 20 seconds to get back up to 5 stacks. That means if you don't have infuriate up that you take significantly more mana, and significantly more GCD's to keep up despite mitigating more of that single large hit.

Absolutely untrue. You get a upgrade in percentage-more-healed for every wrath stack you have.

[Lhun]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about... Don't put other people down when you are not max level and have not experienced end game - half the information that you assume to be true is totally off. The concern with warriors is not 4 man encounters, that has never been an issue... Its the 8 mans where warriors suffer.

You do realize I'm a legacy player who had beta 1.0 access and I've played in every beta of ARR as well... oh, guess you didn't. I preferred to re-roll to play anew with friends on a server that wasn't locked out completely during scaling issues.

Also there are several abilities which very swiftly, if not instantly, restore infuriate to 5, and you should paying attention to this by end game, and working macros and rotations accordingly.

[Coramac]

Absolutely untrue. You get a upgrade in percentage-more-healed for every wrath stack you have.

It is absolutely true. The Paladin already has a 66.7% advantage in bonus healing, 8.7% in absolute healing advantage.

At 0 stacks, Pal has infinite edge in bonus healing and 25% absolute healing advantage.
At 1 stack- 833% and 21.4%
At 2 stacks- 417% and 17.9%
At 3 stacks- 277% and 14.7%
At 4 stacks- 108% and 11.6%
At 5 stacks- 66% and 8.7%

Also important to note, that if using IB as a tanking cooldown, you will be at your greatest disadvantage at a time of importance.

I think this chart really illustrates the big problem. Pal always has a significant incoming heal advantage. If the Warrior uses IB, the healing advantage for a Paladin increases to, quite frankly, absurd levels (using the absolute advantage). A 9% disadvantage is bad... but being at a 15-25% disadvantage is just absolutely absurd.

snip

What other abilities?

[Derza]

You do realize I'm a legacy player who had beta 1.0 access and I've played in every beta of ARR as well... oh, guess you didn't. I preferred to re-roll to play anew with friends on a server that wasn't locked out completely during scaling issues.

Also there are several abilities which very swiftly, if not instantly, restore infuriate to 5, and you should paying attention to this by end game, and working macros and rotations accordingly.

A little confused as to how having 1.0 character gives you insight on how 2.0 endgame works out for warrior... From what you typed as a "defense" you had nothing linking you to doing any of the 8 man dungeons in 2.0 as a warrior. The reason warriors are having such a hard time competing for raid spots is because their mitigation scales with their damage and not with mob damage like paladins do - and mod damage increases much faster than warrior damage when you start getting into 8 mans and i'd assume it to be much worse once 24 mans come out if nothing is changed.

[HiirNoivl]

What other abilities?

When are you ever setting at 0 stacks as WAR though? And why are you not counting the healing you just received from Inner Beast???

This is what I don't understand why people are comparing WAR and PLD this way. PLD has no self heals at all so it relies on incoming heals from the Mage so it needs this healing advantages to survive.

Yet when the WAR uses Inner Beast it is said to be at a disadvantage because it's heals are coming from Inner Beast instead of the mage??

[Derza]

When are you ever setting at 0 stacks as WAR though? And why are you not counting the healing you just received from Inner Beast???

This is what I don't understand why people are comparing WAR and PLD this way. PLD has no self heals at all so it relies on incoming heals from the Mage so it needs this healing advantages to survive.

Yet when the WAR uses Inner Beast it is said to be at a disadvantage because it's heals are coming from Inner Beast instead of the mage??

Don't forget paladin has all the tanking cool downs and warrior has basically none. I think most people see inner beast as a way to compensate for paladin CD's not something to almost make defiance as good as shield oath.

[Coramac]

You are sitting at 0 stacks the moment you activate IB. If you are taking some 9000 damage in a short period of time as people indicate you do in Coil, it's very easy to see how War fall behind. In terms of pure instantaneous survivability, the War and Pal are equal. That spike damage is not instantaneous. It probably occurs over a 2-3ish timeframe. Pal has a 8.7% healing advantage during this. War uses IB after it. Let's just say it heals for 2000. Healing advantage Pal has spikes significantly. 2000 is ~2 auto attacks. Some follow up is mitigated. That's true. But, the incoming healing is greatly reduced compared to Paladin. During the recovery from burst phase, damage is still incoming and I'd bet money there are additional (less severe) burst spikes here the Pal has a huge advantage.

IB is a disadvantage because a War is already at a healing disadvantage compared to a Pal and when used that gap explodes.

[Lhun]

You are sitting at 0 stacks the moment you activate IB.

Literally EVERY ACTION YOU DO at end game gives you wrath. There is an ability that instantly maxes it. If you are being attacked after a large attack which you could not stun, you are using bloodbath. Coupled with vengeance, you are gaining health with every single strike and ability you use. The damage rotation gives you health. Thrill of Battle gives you health. Storm's Path heals you every 6 seconds, and you're using it constantly. You can use Convalescence from GLD which stack with all your healing abilities - all of them - you can use Mantra which FURTHER increases the health gained, plus being able to toss in a second wind every time it's up. You can use Awareness to prevent crits if that's an issue, and you parry ALL THE TIME, because of the job's large natural str. It's more balanced then you think.

[HiirNoivl]

Don't forget paladin has all the tanking cool downs and warrior has basically none. I think most people see inner beast as a way to compensate for paladin CD's not something to almost make defiance as good as shield oath.

What is your definition of "Tanking Cool Down"?

That's the thing. Of course, WAR looks gimp when your definition of "What is tanking" is so narrow.

[Derza]

What is your definition of "Tanking Cool Down"?

That's the thing. Of course, WAR looks gimp when your definition of "What is tanking" is so narrow.

I call tanking cooldowns anything that mitigates damage in some way either from damage reduction or healing. The warrior "tanking" cooldowns are blood bath, foresight (i think it was calculated to get about a 5% reduction in physical damage), featherfoot, inner beast, and storm's path(worthless). The only one of which helps with magic damage is Bloodbath and it is so laughable of a heal its hard to even count that ( vs bosses that auto attack for 1k damage and nuke for 2k+).

You can use Convalescence from GLD which stack with all your healing abilities - all of them -

Storm's Path heals you every 6 seconds, and you're using it constantly.

Another post full of misinformation. Convalescence helps with NONE of the warrior self heals - none of them -, get your facts straight before you throw out all these falsities . If you are using Storm's Path every 6 seconds you are for one gimping yourself if you are picking that over Storm's Eye and not using your emnity combo - for another hacking/or not using the full combo because with the global cooldown the best you could do is use it every 7-7.5 seconds.